@Vort, you are twisting the discussion into philosophical knots here. I read through the github exchange you had with @joshuef. Honestly, I understand the points you were trying to make, but your style makes it very difficult for others to follow along and take it for what it is. Relax, no need to be so serious here.
Thanks for making that clear. I think everyone may have an easier time now. English is tricky even for native speakers in social situations.
I see where this is going and itās either trolling or a continual failure to listen to the other. Iām going to ignore now. I tried but Vort youāve used up my goodwill.
If you want people to engage with you I think you need to learn to listen and show that youāve done so.
To appropriate a Marshall McLuhan quote: āThe Medium is the Messageā.
If your medium of communication is hostility and via inappropriate emotion, it doesnāt matter what facts it aims to transport, that medium will become the message transmitted.
This is especially true in electronic written and social media (as Iām sure McLuhan would agree), so adjust your āmediumā accordingly.
This is how situation looks from my point of view:
I asked question. Because of irrelevant answer, I suspected that my question was not precise enough.
Then I clarified it two times, but result is the same: no relevant answer.
Was my last example not precise enough? I doubt it.
From this I make conclusion that you just donāt want to give answer.
You all want to be respectful, right?
In such case it would be correct to say that question is understood, but answer will not follow because of reasons.
And not talking about failure to listen while failing to listen.
I read about it in Wikipedia.
It looks like early example of clickbait
Of course, some person may prefer to focus more on message and different person - on medium.
But it is wrong to discard completely one of the parts because of the other part.
@Vort if this all is misinterpretation of language donāt take it so personally and try not to get frustrated. If you feel the answer to a question you ask isnāt relevant maybe try asking the question differently. If you simply donāt like the answer by all means disagree but donāt then start telling the team how to do their job. If you provide evidence as to why something is wrong or wonāt work Iām 99.9% sure this team will take it on board. If you are truly honest and trying to help you canāt just keep pointing out how wrong everything is without offering an alternative or why itās wrong. Iām not technical enough to know if what you say is right or wrong but there are plenty in this forum who are. If you offer superior code that will solve problems/bugs and speed up launch Iām sure it will be gladly received.
It is strange to read this after I asked question in three different ways and still got no clear answer to it. There might have been some problems with my interactions with @happybeing, but what about other participants of this discussion?
Language problem again? How ātelling how to do their jobā differs from āoffering an alternativeā?
The problem is that some of my messages are getting ignored.
Asking āwhyā is useless. So Iām trying to figure out whatās wrong with ābrute forceā method. More emotions needed? Less emotions needed? More detalization? Less detalization? Less amount of bugreports? ā¦(Many more questions)ā¦
Looks like āmore emotionsā method works better despite complaints about my rudeness.
Sometimes I know answer and say it right away. Sometimes I have ideas, which Iām not sure about. And sometimes I see only problem and have no solutions.
I read similar messages many times and looks like I need to give answer. But looks like everyting I can say about it - āitās complicatedā. For now I prefer to focus on bugreports. Technical bugreports are easier to make, but looks like it will be hard not to make some social bugreports in addition too.
Difference is too subtle for me.
I have more variations:
3. If you do this, there will be problems.
4. Why you did not made this?
5. This is very important thing to do.
Alternative is presented in all of these variants.
And it is assumed that most of community members canāt force developers to do something, so no matter how alternative is presented, result should not change too much.
However, since I prefer not to say something like variant #2 (do this), can you show some examples? I wonder how often it happens.
Regarding main topic, it was surprising to see no (clear) answer to my question about the scope of proposed ārulesā. Even month of time was not enough for people here to figure it out.
I make two conclusions from it: 1. People here do not fully understand what they are proposing and discussing. Attempt to apply some rules will result eventually in failure. 2. People canāt admit that their understanding is having problems.
Problem #1 is not that bad on its own, it is normal to make mistakes and improve own knowledge, however in conjunction with problem #2 it starts to become dangerous, because of broken feedback loop.
I have experience of making contribution to open project and not getting even slightest reaction to it.
Because of it, now I start contributing slowly, measuring feedback in the process.
If I see that tiny contributions have no effect, I make conclusion that larger contributions will have the same fate.
For example, when easiest bugs are not getting fixed, there are almost 100% chance that more complex bugs will not be fixed too. Why making more complicated bugreport then?
In the same way - when bugreports are ignored, usually PRs become ignored too. So why making PR then?
Speaking more closely about this particular project: many times I said about some ideas being wrong and watched how they were implemented afterwards, many times I presented better alternatives and watched how they were ignored.
When problems are created faster than solved, there are no need in contributions from community (or, at least, from me).
At this moment, even my small contribution to data storage network by making bugreports looks like wrong decision, I wonder what person who decide to put more work into it can feel after discovering news about focusing on payments-only network.
I propose to people to keep track of how feedback is going even better that I was doing. It will allow to spend your resources more efficiently.
People understood, but because of your tone and general style of communication, felt strongly compelled not to be generous with their time.
Iām saying this from a high-level reading of this thread - I havenāt gotten down into the weeds of the details of the whole thing, I donāt have time. Iāve browsed, and have a feel for the main thrust. And Iāve seen your contributions in the past.
Personally I do think you are sincerely trying to ācontributeā as you see it. However, your tone is very brutal at times. Which can be refreshing, Iām usually pleased and a bit amused when I see you utterly ignore the general tone and ask a question as shortly as one can - but it is very understandable that the people youāre firing (questions) at eventually say to themselves: āIām sorry, but could that not be said with a bit of understanding for the difficulty of all we have on our plate?ā
So yes, the point has been made before, but I donāt know if youāve taken it on board at all, so Iām chiming in here to say: tone does, of course, matter. People are not robots. Technical details are not the only thing that matters when it comes to solving technical problemsā¦ in a very narrow sense, yeah sure, but in a broader sense, what the developer had for breakfast that morning also, obviously, does matter. So how you ask your question matters.
If there was some way you could keep contributing in the way you do, often cutting to the heart of some point which easily could be interesting or worthwhile, which many of us I think do appreciate, while putting in a conscious effort to remember that an āopen projectā doesnāt actually mean personally beholden to your every whim, maybe this situation could be resolved in everyoneās favour.
TL;DR
Sometimes you come across as: āHereās an issue I think I see, hereās an attempt to describe, could someone address thisā. And, unfortunately, othertimes it comes across as: āHereās an issue I think I see, how could everyone have been so stupid as to not see it, I am tired of having to point out such obvious stuffā. I propose you stick to the first, and add in a please and a thank you now and again.
Not to demand too much of you, but a show of understanding for the grievances that the developers expressed to you would surely be in order too, regardless of your opinion on the matter ā again, these people have no obligation to you, and have feelings, and sometimes their breakfast doesnāt go as planned and they have a bad day, presumably, like the rest of us.
As for your explanation #3 - I highly doubt it. There were lots of responses here despite tone. It looks more like avoiding hard question. And I noticed such behaviour in case of development too.
As for the rest of your message - I mostly agree with you.
I may add more comments about it later.
I have never seen that on this site, quite the opposite.
To be clear you do not have a priority channel to devs here chap. The teamās busy and trying to crush bugs, you are trying to help and that is great. However, demanding feedback continually is exhausting.
If you work with the team you will get better help. As you seem to be technically proficient, then write some code, fix a fault yourself. Itās our code base, not maidsafeās, that is what OSS means to me and many others.
If you just ignore feedback yourself, though and then complain others ignore you, then you are in. a place where you need a torch.
Hey @Vort, as Iāve mentioned a couple of times in the past, I like the terse dry style, like JayBird expressed so well above.
A few thoughts from me hereā¦:
This here I think is quite a good description of what you can be perceived as saying. I feel quite comfortable with that assesment as itās a way that I have come across many times myselves. And still do.
And I would say that Iāve been much worse than you, many times.
And itās not that Iāve just come across like it, Iāve felt it as well.
I consider that a flaw in my character. Doesnāt matter however right or wrong the feeling is, itās not a nice way to collaborate with people. That is something I both feel and logically compute.
I do feel that Iām not personally very disturbed by that approach, but I understand that others might be, and itās not for me to decide what others should or should not feel comfortable with. If I want to collaborate and make progress I need to adapt. The fastest and simplest way is to adapt myself. The hardest and slowest way is try to change others (generally, in social circumstances itās a dysfunctional approach as wellā¦).
So I feel that I understand to some degree what youāre into.
Of course sometimes, when I feel very sure at something, I may have gone a bit too far the other way instead, and instead come across like Iām unsure and not knowing, and I can then feel like Iām not getting taken seriously. And boy that can get you miffed .
Itās a constant equilibrium to find. But thatās really not an issue, low cost to pay to make better progress overall.
And thatās maybe where I would have something to toss over to you, something I feel you would feel much more satisfaction with over time, to do what you wish with:
Itās not that bad to try things that others say could be a thing. In fact thatās the best way I have ever had in finding satisfaction, flow and generally finding life to be good. And you know what? Iāve never missed whatever I left behind. Who ever that person was, thinking he knew so well, Iām always happier with the newer version of me.