Poll: Do you want ERC20 MAID?

It can be an echo chamber in here and some constructive criticism should always be welcome. I welcome your input and commitment to the project.

I agree that the focus on engineering and getting a MVP live should always have been the priority. In the latest dev update, the team reflected a similar note. So, here is hoping that the focus now is and will remain on getting a basic, working network out there, even if incomplete and with warts.

On a positive note, it feels like the community has been pulled closer to the project due to events both within and outside of the company. This forum is a credit to both the team and the community and reflection of passions held.

My hope is that more people feel compelled to contribute development time to the project. If it wasn’t for a full life schedule, I’d be excited to throw my hat in the ring - what better challenge to pit yourself against, with great evidence of the results linked from your CV!

If I find myself between contracts, I will be making time to cross train to Rust and helping where I can. In the mean time, I will continue to shape the debate online and assist where I can.

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Just to say I don’t agree that the rules were clear in 2014. It was incautious to expect any particular outcome, but a lot was left unsaid and the clarification that eventually arrived in 2018 is ridiculously arbitrary and will be ruinous for some. I think a lot of people will have been caught by this and may still not realise it. If any of them have large stashes to defend HMRC will find itself in court while those without face bankruptcy for no good reason.

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Including one of Scotland’s largest and most respected accountancy firms, who also provide forensic accounting for the courts. If it was obvious, then why would HMRC state it at all in 2018 and not just say it was already obvious, why did they spend so much time, money and effort on getting the 2018 (and yet only partly complete picture) prepared?

I agree @happybeing it was far from obvious, clear or final (2014 even mentioned it may be tax-free altogether). So sorry @opacey I don’t agree it was obvious at all, not in the least and the professionals I paid a lot to obviously did not think so either. I feel they will know more than you and me on tax matters. I also spoke with HMRC directly in 2017 regarding crypto and they were in agreement that paying CGT on transfer for services or fiat was a reasonable action.

HMRC is also far from complete in their decisions particularly regarding corporations, utility tokens and more. It is a changing environment and these orgs are catching up. When I paid my CGT (which even if you check Wikipedia is a simple tax to avoid) I informed the accountants to pay 100% of CGT and no avoidance at all, not even an ISA etc. That can be described as personal mismanagement on my part, but my desire was to pay my tax in the vain hope it would help others who are less fortunate. That backfired for sure as I took the cash left and did help others directly. Again that can be described as mismanagement, bad decision, etc. but my goal is always to grow together, never alone.

So yes you can say I have made bad decisions in my personal finances, but at least I know I did help others, now I will need to fight for myself, but I can and that is the difference. Not everyone can or should have to.

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I paid cgt on my trades, but maid imho could be considered so risky that none were due.
Better safe than sorry.

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Just so you are clear here Oscar, that is a small part, the bigger part is I have paid in more in hard cash than I will ever be paid out. That is in £ from me to the company. More than any investor has or all the equity investors combined to make that more clear.

This is over and above sweat equity, which is an expected contribution.

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@opacey, I’m not really doubting your well intentions, and personally I am very aligned with your tendency to critizice and scrutinize – I personally deeply value such (when honest) directed towards me as guidance (however, very importantly, without guaranteeing that I would always respond as if – I can of course be annoyed, stubborn and grumpy as well as the many other possible responses to such). If dishonest I don’t rule out going war-mode if necessary (worst case scenario, but generally least common I would say as well). But if the criticism and scrutiny is just objectively wrong I do not (personally) need to care. If it is correct then it is possibly providing me with information I didn’t have, which would be absolutely necessary to not repeat my errors. That makes me very grateful. I hate to not know my weaknesses and errors.

It’s more complicated in public discussion. Most often criticism is semi-correct, and when semi-correct and repeated, it is hard to just say ”yeah, you’re right, thanks” because it isn’t quite right (and as a public person, confirming it all to be would be simply damaging to my work), and correcting it draws me into potentially long winding discussions, draining energy, where it is in the end still not clear to the public what is true or not. In that case, and especially if there are numerous such occurrences, cost/benefit in engaging in them all might be poor, and a strategy where all such is straight off discarded, could be rational (depends so much on context it is not even worth going into here).

I do not doubt that you consider your criticism and scrutiny to be accurate and fair, and that is why I do not consider any of what you say straight out malicious (not ruling out some drops of bitterness though, which could explain some of the harshness). But, it’s not certain that what you say actually is accurate and fair. If only looking about the statement about HMRC in 2014; myself I have no idea what UK regulations are or were, but it would seem from what @happybeing and @dirvine says, that your statement is not accurate or fair (aka ”the premise”). And so… that might apply to the other things you say as well (in any number of ways…), which makes it hard to accept it all straight off. It certainly will take more time to distinguish it, not only for recipient but also the wider public (which is where it becomes damaging when true and false is confused). You must acknowledge this (given ”the premise”) to be somewhat reasonable?

So, I would say that if you really really consider your observations and your analysis to be important, you must be much more selective with the contents and delivery, spending more time on providing them in a form more likely to be both objectively correct, as well received (any minimal drop of bitterness can waste the whole drink…) given any and all circumstances (purely my personal assessment, do what you will with it) because the cost / benefit, from receiver perspective, of giving attention to it might not be that high otherwise, which would increase the likelihood of some other strategy to kick in (discard this criticism with some low cost method - saying nothing is often not a good alternative, and well balanced, tailor suited responses for your words personally, are higher cost to produce).
If you don’t think it’s worth the effort to be more selective or crafting the message (even more) for the context, then probably the contents aren’t that important? (Or well… you might just not see the value and utility of it, in which case I guess you’ll just have to trod on with the approach you consider suitable, with what ever results that gives).

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I have a big problem with such criticism. I’m sure you are a very smart person. But you miss something very important. Other people’s ability to see the truth, too.

Why do you think everything you say no one else thought or saw? And when you said it out loud, what did you accomplish?

I wouldn’t have any problem if you came and said: I don’t like A, B, C, so I start doing D… The world needs more people doing things. We have enough information. Be the change you want to see in the world…

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I completely agree with this, and it’s much much harder sometimes than it would seem from saying it.
Standing on the sidelines of a project it can also be frustrating and hard to do.

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Thanks for your feedback and I agree all you said.

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To me this is critical for both Engineers and folks running a business. We all make mistakes, I make loads and it’s part of the job. It is what allows us to continue. We end up funded, we end up moving forward and we must. As we progress the team strengthens and that is a good thing, but it’s all built on errors, just like any code base is.

It’s like fishing and with every cast that does not catch a fish being seen as bad management of the fisherman, regardless how many fish he catches. To me any project is like that, any job is like that, otherwise it’s a very repetitive simple job that a robot should be doing.

Introspection and criticism work well when founded. Public forums make that difficult, but it is important. The key, to me, is read between the lines, get a general feeling of consensus on many things, but then (and this is the hard part), figure out a route. That route may not be obvious (close offices, set up a loan scheme, 4 day week, flatter structure etc.) and may not work, so we go another route :wink: (cast the line a little bit more down river etc.)

It’s about the team in projects like this, real true collaboration and tough thinking. The leadership does make a difference and that has changed a lot recently, an awful lot. We will see what 2020 brings.

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Welcoming and thriving with Failure is just the next step toward success. Those who are afraid of failure, and are frightened do so, fail because they never even begin.

If this project never had moments of failure, I would be suspicious that nothing bold and new was being attempted! Go Maidsafe, 2020!

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I’m also very encouraged by those who acknowledge negatives and yet don’t dwell on them. This project is all the stronger for its robust approach to problem solving.

Off now to drink gin and eat too much turkey!

Looking forward to a great 2020 :+1:

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The main basis for the claim comes down to evidence of network effects available to quality projects sporting an ERC-20 token. I gave an overview of some of these positive feedback loop benefits in this post above but you could almost take your pick of which angle to measure this effect by. If you have a speculative decentralised project and wish to connect with investors and developers that are interested in that kind of tech, then ERC-20 appears to be where it is at, by far(*). For example I suggested checking out the number of traditional exchanges/liquidity currently available to similar calibre projects to Safe. However thanks to supporting infrastructure many do not have to bother with an exchange and just use one of the plentiful in-wallet ERC-20 swap services. Easy and straight forward investment and if I am a developer, what is this Safecoin(ERC-20) project anyway I might check it out.

(*) “By far” Statement based on market liquidity chart linked in above post, and number of actively developed projects using ERC-20 also linked above. Which means more supporting infrastructure such as decentralised liquidity provision services and wallets for many niche markets, which attracts more investors and projects, etc etc.

So to turn this around: With so much evidence of network effects in play in the ERC-20 ecosystem, why are you discounting it here? If we want developers and investors interested in speculative decentralised projects then how is entering into the main market for both those interest groups not going to benefit Safe Network development?

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Keep it omni make it hard as possible to acquire, cheaper the better for the potential bull run in 5 years.

Sounds indeed like you took the best advice you could. I take back what I posited about evidence of mismanagement. I wish you well and hope these expensive advisors give you back the fees or even cover the difference.

Do look up Adrian Markey (this is a recommendation to all in the UK) - just an individual tax advisor but he studied the 2014 rules and came up with an understanding of them which matched with the later 2018 refinement, his clients weren’t caught short. As I said, I know many people were. There was a lot of accidental optimism around the ‘some activity might be gambling and therefore tax free’. HMRC used this as a kind of ‘have your cake and eat it clause’ which was unfair and and ultimately likely to be withdrawn if tested by precedent in court. 2018 has clarified this particular clause as well as brought in additional rules around the innovations in the token market. Surprisingly they also seem to have the position that they won’t be retroactively investigating the very early crypto windfall cases though they are keeping their options open. Sounds like you got shafted by bad advice from both advisors and HMRC - there really should be some allowance or compensation offered.

Happy new year to all at MaidSafe and in the group.

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Another example of the innovation driven by network effects going on in ERC20 markets. Decentralised submission and vetting of project tokens which are then listed by other exchanges, principally Deversifi (around $USD 200 million daily volume over last week)

Anyone can start curation process if Safecoin(ERC-20) becomes a reality.

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was there any movement on moving to ERC20? I really feel it should be done. I follow the Factom project a lot and their lack of liquidity is really harming the project. They have had a rough time recently, but with so many FCT’s getting mined and not being on many decent exchanges is really making it difficult for them.

Even if SAFE is getting a full launch in 12 months time, I believe it will help the project and price. Specially with DEX’s becoming more popular and a potential bull market starting.

Factom are looking at some kind of ERC20 wrapper for their token to make it easier to be traded. I’m not sure what that would entail, but it sounds like it’s worth a try.

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I have high hopes for OmniDex. We won’t need ERC20 whit Bitcoin DEX…

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when is that getting launched?

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Screenshot_2020-05-04_13-47-12

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