When "bad actors" start using SAFE...?

The balance ratio of bad to good standard must be very high;
like .0000000001 parts bad actor 9999999999999999999999999999.999999999 parts good actors
And bad actors should not be capable of establishing permanent bad acting

  1. Everyone here knows I’m not associated with the Project. Since I don’t decide about anything, I can’t be dismissive (or appreciative) of these concerns. It’s doesn’t matter what I say. I don’t create these risks of “bad actor abuse” that you describe and neither can I make them go away by stating my outrage and concern.

  2. I actually offered several suggestions to help mitigate those problems while maintaining all the promises of SAFE.
    That advances this discussion and (unlike my value views) actually helps the project. Instead of commenting on my value views, please offer some contribution.

  3. In my 2nd comment above I asked a relevant question, namely that of legal risk, which is (unlike public perception) one aspect that maybe matters.
    If BitTorrent has been operating without any consequences, why would Diaspora or MaidSafe be any different?
    (And without any indication that illegal use of their protocol mattered to BitTorrent.com, perhaps we should ask ourselves why is this Topic not in Off-Topic section.).

  4. The way you describe it, your mobile phone provider is also aiding criminal activities and so is your mailman. Right now you can download and receive in mail all sorts of criminal digital and physical material.
    (a) But you still use their services and (b) Those who shun their services do not seem to bother them.
    Oh, and you are also still using Diaspora! :smiley:

You appear to think that persuading me to see things your way me will change how people will use the network. It won’t. “Bad actors” are simply waiting to use the network from someone’s free WiFi AP. They haven’t registered here using their email address and they aren’t going to argue for their rights to distribute pirated copies of Widows 8 on the MaidSafe network.

(As a side note, I find it bizarre that just as the Project is about to deliver what it’s supposed to, its key features are becoming considered risks to its “public image”. Had it not occurred to anyone that not all images on the SAFE network will be those of beautiful flowery paths?)

Let us hear

  1. Your suggestions on how to fix/mitigate the alleged problem
  2. How exactly would a public attack (a.k.a. the U.K. government-orchestrated smear campaign) impact the need of Brazilian students to use the MaidSafe network or the motivation of Vietnamese farmers to keep earning Safecoins.
  3. Anything else that demonstrates that this topic does not belong to Off-Topic or Advocacy section.

I agree @dallyshalla . It seems like safecoin would be a very quick, efficient way to respond to a disaster. Donations would be immediate. If a wallet was set up for something like the red cross and they used it, their suppliers would also, probably consider accepting safecoin for expediency.

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We cannot stop the bad actors. This is part of the price of freedom. What we can do is focus on what good can be done, implement and demonstrate that. Let the good overwhelm the bad.

I agree. Some actions have been taken against some bit torrent users and torrent directories (like The Pirate Bay), but the protocol is still in broader and broader, and more socially accepted use.

Diaspora is the same, basically. It’s a protocol that people share voluntarily, so it’s virtually impossible to take down as long as people see their personal margin in it.

The SAFE network will be even more so, so will be subject to as much negative kickback as any other, and probably a lot more. It will defy regulation so the irresistible urge to vilify it will sprout from all quarters that get their power from regulation. We’ll definitely see the network used by “bad actors”. Some of them will actually BE bad, rather than Silk Road voluntary exchangers, etc.

There’s not much we can do about that. But we’ll get past it, as the good will way outweigh the bad as time goes on.

I read @happybeing’s concern as considering what we can do to short-circuit the negative PR as much as possible, because we won’t be able to do much on a core network level and retain the positive attributes of the network. We can also put apps on top that people can use to define their own experience (and that of their children, I imagine).

I haven’t followed the thread regarding making things safe for kids, but it seems the same dynamics apply to this idea.
/////
I also tend to agree with keeping the free cap not too large, but think it definitely could be more, like 1-2 Gb, maybe as much as 5-10 Gb. Compared to the amount of storage to be put into the network, that’s almost nothing, but enough to be very useful. Remember that actually getting onto and using the network is a valuable addition by the user. It’s not really freeloading, as the network effect lets them contribute value by just being there and using it.

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@happybeing I completely agree with you that what we need to do is head of negative stigma. I was using BitMessage the other day, and my fiance asked what it was.

“It’s this mail service that uses everyone’s computers to help send messages, instead of just keeping your mail all on one server. It’s potentially safer than keeping your stuff on a server that might get hacked or whatever.”
“So you’re helping pass messages around?”
“Yeah.”
“So there’s other people’s mail on your computer?”
“Yeah, sort of. Momentarily, but I can’t read it.”
“So what if someone is sending child porn or terrorist messages? There could be child porn on your computer? Then you’re helping move child porn!”

And that, right there, is the thought process of the majority of people. “Am I helping bad people to hurt innocent people?”

But as we all know, the post office could be moving drugs and CP. I could be using a dollar that was used for an assassination. But we disconnect from it because we’re not present for the event. I’m not helping to deliver US post mail, so I don’t care. But if I’m involved in the process, things change. That’s the difference, I think.

I like the suggestion of setting up donation services and such, do admirable work to show the power of the network. Don’t tell people why they’re stupid for being worried about CP, or tell them “It’s the price of freedom!” It’s aggressive, argumentative, and counter-productive.

I mentioned this somewhere else, but what’s stopping me from writing an application on my computer that just creates hundreds/thousands of accounts, and then just manages those accounts? A file system manager that treats the thousands of accounts like one master account to the end user. Then I distribute that app for free. Think of a Bitcoin wallet managing multiple addresses, but instead its Maidsafe tokens/accounts.

If you create something like that, and if it’s extremely easy to use, people would choose that over paying for space. I know I would.

Is there a topic for this? Seems like a hugely important discussion.

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My concern is indeed about the network being attacked in this way, and I think that this is important because unlike BitTorrent or even Diaspora, the network is intended for mass adoption - a replacement for the internet no less. Maybe we won’t achieve that, and certainly there will be lots of vested interests who will not want it, and some of them have the power to wage a very powerful and widespread campaign against it in mainstream media etc.

If we want widespread adoption, we need consider this and it may well help to be prepared - through discussion, and as my post suggests: to see what happens with Diaspora in case we can learn anything from it, seeing as it just made the BBC for the first time in its history for this very reason. Who knows, maybe it will help increase adoption! :slight_smile:

Diaspora is a bit different in that it would probably be easier in a lot of cases (certainly the biggest PoD joindiaspora) to go after the PoD admins or hosting itself, as is increasingly being done by both law enforcement and the copyright industry.

Also, Diaspora is very small beer compared to what we anticipate with SAFE. Even BitTorrent is tiny compared to what we’re trying to create.

I’m saying let’s watch and see if we can learn anything useful.

I really don’t understand why this is attracting so much bashing from @janitor, and I’m not minded to write a long response to all those points when I’m not asking @janitor to do anything. I had the impression from the initial response that @janitor, you hadn’t understood my point at all, so was clarifying it. But if you don’t think public perception of Project SAFE is an issue, that’s fine, go and work on the things you do think are important. There’s no need for you to get dismissive of others’ concerns, which you did again with that “Had it not occurred to anyone…” sarcasm. Nor to suggest that I’m saying things that I’m not, as in “you appear to think…” in order to try and make me appear stupid. I find this mocking and offensive.

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How do we beat this? Fight fire with fire? Draw attention to the fire? I am not in any way discounting the threat. All im suggesting is that we focus our collective brainpower on positive, good expression of this technology. Let the tactic be diverting attention away from the “if it bleeds it leads” to the truth. I thought we should focus on creating that truth.

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I think compared to the very minimal amount that added storage should cost, that this would be a generally unattractive and complex approach. We’ll see what the resource pricing works out as, but I’m expecting the value of safecoin go up while the cost of storage goes down, making it not so attractive to cheat.

The attack vector is the only thing I have attention on along the lines of what you’re saying. I think that that may be a case for smaller initial free cap. That’s a different animal. But even so, I think 250 Mb would be small enough yet give someone enough to be getting on with while starting to use the network.

@fergish / @russell Free storage is an important but different issue. A new topic?

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just did it.

I think we would be able to mitigate this to an extent by having a crisis PR plan in place, which we don’t currently have but will need to get in plan for beta. We have discussed and are relatively aware of how we would respond to certain types of criticism, we need to get them down on paper though.

I think that if the project were to come under attack from a large incumbent or government, then negative PR is how they would do it.

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The SAFE network would facilitate the ability to support: spirituality, monetarily and otherwise what we call the “Christian underground” for those in areas where practicing ones religion is dangerous. The SAFE network facilitates freedom of religion! Sell that!

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I’d say, the app developers will have a huge role in the perception of the network…regular people would normally have no interest in whats under the hood…it’s the apps man!

But…no malware, viruses, spyware, no need for backups…that’s huge and we should be promoting the heck out of these features…people understand the pain these nasties create. This is the positive news we need to propagate in order to get regular folk on the network (social media campaign)

Privacy is in the headlines…but folk are so hypnotized into the belief that ‘if I’m doing nothing wrong, I have nothing to fear’ they wont immediately comprehend what they have been given…after all it’s never happened before.

But when they do awaken…

Private Communications + Data Security = Freedom for All

Whatever or whomever we have faith in…well we can express that now without fear. Whatever or whomever we despise, we can now express that also.

It wont happen overnight, but once humans realize they are free to rat out the despised bad actors, change could happen really quickly…and maybe with a dose of chaos as control systems unravel?

There are figures out there, showing a dramatic decrease in Police brutality, once their wired for video. It’s the state actors (public servants) that need to be brought to heel…once that happens, maybe we’ll have the teeth to reign in the Private bad actors.

It’s going to be a wild ride with lots of opportunity to profit from doing good I reckon…strange concept :slight_smile:

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@chrisfostertv a like just wasn’t enough. Yes, yes and yes!

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Cheers :blush:

the bad actor is part of the market. We can do nothing. And we should do nothing. If there is no silkroad the bitcoin can not find the value to now. The same as Maidsafe we need the bad dark market to some degree.

When im home I live in Oakland, CA . Gang infested. Hopefully when people trust the SAFE network maybe just maybe they can report who the murderers are. As it is everyone is too scared.

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Wow, thats as real as it gets.

You have a very different dynamic in the US to us in Australia, we had the guns confiscated. I know the government here are very fearful of 3D printed guns, but then again 3D printing directly threatens the big corporations, so maybe a beat up.

If you read Martin Armstrong, he believes the problem is always government, they will never change their ways and so Revolution becomes the end result.

It certainly seems US police are geared up for that scenario as the #ferguson situation starkly shows. Revolution would be a big mistake though wouldn’t it? the might of the military would crush the people like bugs.

With something like SAFE, communities will have a way of organising against any bad actors, including local gangs, police and governments…who seem to have synergistic criminal relationships to some extent.

I cant see any other solution for routing out systemic corruption, but via community by community organising, starving the beast via education and ethical allocation of capital. Peoples pension funds for example are collectively big players and can assert real pressure.

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We cannot stop them but we can do what we can to prove we aren’t like them. Each person should be allowed to interact with SAFE Network in the way they choose to as a unique tribe.

We aren’t all the same tribe, we don’t have the same needs, or fit into the same use cases. I think the majority of people do not want complete anonymity but at the same time we do want to limit and or control what people can learn about our activities (privacy).

I’ve offered my ideas in the past on what could be done. I’m advocating accommodating the mainstream users rather than the bad actors. It may take some developer time to accommodate the mainstream but this is important if SAFE Network is to be useful to the world and not just to bad actors.

We need to let each individual define how they use SAFE Network. Contracts can allow it, programmable privacy can also allow it.