What can one do if one has 99% of the elder nodes

is it possible the US secret agencies to take over?

I just read:

The government likes Tor because it provides them cover traffic for their own anonymous operations, that’s how it freaking works.

secret agencies got lots of money, so consider this.

they know about safe network, they got people studying it,

what if on launch of live network they have ready to deploy millions of nodes, so lets say we are 5000 in this foroum each of us makes a node so 5000 nodes, and us has 10.000.000 nodes that slowly get into the safe network, and they manage that by also buying puts and uploading massive junk files so the demand goes up so all their nodes goes into the safe network cause of demand the safe network accepts all 10.000.000 nodes.

so elder nodes would be 99.9% secret agency controlled.

so in that scenario is it possible that safe network would be compromised?

I made a more elaborate question and example in a reply:

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That’s great. If the US do it, then every major political power will also do it. Demand will be huge and no one will know what the other is doing.

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for a cryproskeptic you are fully optimistic that it will balance out, but what if only one agency outperform like I said in the 99.9% of all the elder nodes? what can safe network do to combat that?

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It becomes a very costly exercise for them.

If in the first few months we see 10 million nodes trying to join, then most can put 2 and 2 together and smell a rat.

People will be gossiping about how many nodes they have running in the first stage of the network (be it 2 or 6 or 12) months. If we see many times that in the network then we can question if the network is being attacked and consider restarting the network with a new ID and leave the government running their own wasting their money. You know how long it takes them to move on such things.

Why have they not done this with Bittorrent? Very important to consider since anything is shared using bittorrent.

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I don’t seriously think they will. TOR was developed by them that’s why they use it. They won’t use anything unless they understand it

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but (hmm devils advocate) what if they persue this? what if they own 99.9% of the elder nodes?

Good luck to them and others

ok last reply, I am looking for serious answer or a redirect to resources if there are about this subject.
please stay on topic

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I’m more worried if aliens land and show us their version of the internet via mind transfer. Then we are in trouble

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ok, can I request a moderator to delete all the troll messages? I want serious answer… :confused:

What troll messages. I’m serious. Are you saying it’s not possible

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Ummm… #1: @Cryptoskeptic is anything but a troll. #2: The title of this topic had me thinking its creator is probably trolling, to be honest because #3: as @neo has already said, to takeover 99% of Network resources would be a frighteningly expensive proposition, and there are many topics threads that speak to this. To help get you started (assuming you’re not trolling), read: Massive scale maidsafe farm & Analysing the google attack

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how does your replies answer the question or helps me find the answer?

@Sotros25 ty mate! I will read those and if it answers my question I will ask for a lock on this thread/ deletion

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@Sotros25 I tried to find the answer but either too technical or too old and doesnt have an asnwer or isnt the same question as mine.

what I want is an ELI5 style answer to the question: some party makes a plan once the safe network live launch and manages to have 99% elder.

please note: I want to beg you to undestand the power of US inteligence, they have the biggest data center in the world and they store ALL public and any info they get their hands on. Also their budget is unlimited so they can dominate the information dominance.

so a party that controls 99% of the elders, what impact does it have on the safe network.

example given:

  1. the network starts with 5000 nodes
  2. the inteligence agency knows that more nodes are accepted when there is more PUTS on the network leading to less available storage, so they upload tbs of junk (they pay the price)
  3. they make nodes/vaults that are random IP location and random storage size, these nodes and vaults wait for approval
  4. once the safe network needs more nodes/vaults/storage space it accepts one by one all the agency’s nodes/vaults
  5. lets say users continue to join so 10.000 safe nodes, but at the same time 1.000.000 malicious nodes have been approved
  6. now from the 1.000.000 malicious nodes/vaults and from the 10.000 safe nodes/vaults we get after some time (through the safe network algorithm) 100 elders from the safe nodes/vaults and 10.000 elders from the malicious nodes/vaults
  7. here comes my question: what the malicous elders can do to the network because the malicious elders are 99% of all the elders

edit:
about me cause @Sotros25 thought maybe I am troll

I have been interested to the project over a month now and have read lots of threads and I have contributed some of my thoughts but after searching more about it I got the question what if there are more malicious and I did the math (an agency with unlimited resources and will to win the information dominance, cause safe network is a threat to them in my opinion) and I really want to learn in such a senario what can they do to the network or to the people or any other possible negative thing

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First of all, no agency or government entity has unlimited resources. It’s a big part of the reason why, for example, the US sphere of military influence in Asia is waning. Every empire eventually stretches itself too thin.

What you’re proposing/questioning could either be called a 51% attack or Sybil attack. Once again, so much has been written on these topics (as well as node aging and management) that I implore you to use this forum’s search function to do more research. Here’s another useful thread for you to read: Step-by-step: the road to Fleming, 3: Sybil resilience simulations.

There is no way for any entity other than the Network itself to know how many nodes are on the Network, and the number of nodes isn’t fixed. Why does it matter that there are 5000 nodes to start? Moreover, what do you think these malicious nodes would do? If the malicious nodes are filled with junk and can’t store more data (would be) users request to upload, that would drive up the value of Safecoin, which would entice more farmers to join the Network until the laws supply and demand restored balance.

I suppose theoretically, a government could choose to keep trying to keep pace with Network growth by adding more compromised notes but, once again, that would be incredibly expensive both in terms of fiat spent and human capital deployed. Plus there’s no way for said government, as already noted, to be sure if they have x% of nodes (which would still need to age). I also think you’re taking for granted how difficult it is to generate the coordinated and collective action within a government for something like this. Every dollar spent waging war against SAFE would be a dollar many other parties would have wanted for their pet project.

Also, the Network would be aware, I would think, that a bunch of Nodes have many PUTS but almost no GET requests. I’d assume that would be earmarked as weird behavior.

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consider that he read how it works and he sets up many private websites on the safe network where he shares the “junk” (it maybe a 4gb movie) and from other accounts he accesses/downloads it,

so:

  1. fills the storage
  2. gets more nodes in
  3. accesses the “junk” that he uploaded from other accounts
  4. nodes get all the time more in quantity and more age by work done
  5. ends up with more 99% elders

and still my question is not how to do that or if its possible cause we cannot forsee everything

my question is still what one with 99% elders can do to the network, to the people, or any negative thing

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@Sotros25 ok sry I didnt put a correct title

No decentralized solution maintains stability+security under a 99% attack lolz. Even blockchain solutions (which arguably do better than the 2/3rd required non-malicious here w SAFE @ w the usual 51% miner attacks) can’t handle 99% hostile takeover of nodes my dude. Bitcoin and all the likes of them. Your point isn’t super relevant because decentralized solutions after their somewhat vulnerable state early on become quite robust when user uptake occurs in a few given weeks. And there is a common desire generally for these networks to succeed, especially early on when driven by community members under the radar, a malicious entity does not really gain much by harming SAFE, the coins would become worthless due to compromised security, people would stop using the network and move to something else or a fresh net copy. Once the network is decently sized its a non-issue.

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I think yes it would be compromised, but what would they want to / be able to do?

The attacker could

  • delete chunks
  • change safecoin ownership / amounts
  • add data to the network for free
  • expel nodes
  • prevent nodes from joining
  • prevent or control relocation of vaults
  • adjust node age
  • control the consensus algorithms
  • probably a lot more

What can’t they do?

  • Change the content of immutable data, since the content and the name are intertwined.
  • Pretend to be someone (eg transfer their coins in their name), since they can’t sign without the private key of the other person
  • Maybe some other things too

So they can do enough that you’d have to say the network would not survive.

The more important question is not ‘if’ they can but ‘how expensive is it’ and ‘does the benefit justify the cost’? There’s no perfect security, only secure enough. I think the topic should be asking ‘is SAFE secure enough’ or ‘what is the cost to control X% of the network’ or ‘can others prevent control’ or ‘can others detect impending control and stop it before it happens’. Important questions for sure.

Jumping straight to ‘if they control X%’ is stepping too far ahead in the chain of logic imo.

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Also, if the network does die, a new one can just be started again. Are they going to attack that one too and literally keep throwing good money after bad?

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