"We cannot know how much space is available" - Isnt this the core of how safenetwork works?

The network is predicated upon the availability and distribution of storage space. Its what powers safecoin and its value.

Referencing this post regarding how safe determines actual free space contributed to the network (How does the network know free space and decide PUT price?)

Dr irvine, maidsafe developer (correct?), replied may 2019 referring to this mechanism:

"Just to be clear here, “can expand” means it can, it has not yet. It does not even exist yet, never mind exactly how it works or what it covers. I am only saying there is something coming that can be used for much more than it would seem, it is coming, it’s not here and it’s capabilities are not fully realised in anyone’s mind or code, so for single API call for a feature not debated out or detailed etc. then we cannot know at this stage.

The feature that determines safe’s key metric and value, storage space, is “not fully realized in anyones mind”? There is literally no way to keep a malicious actor from falsely reporting to the network that he posesses infinite data capacity other than to fill their drives with junk data and even then it is not 100% verifiable?

It is a solved problem in the industry at least

What’s not fully realized in anyone’s mind (I’m guessing) is exactly how it should work, because it has never been done in this way before. There are definitely ways to keep a malicious actor from reporting having infinite data capacity.

This is a basic consideration when making a system like this; making sure there is no way to for malicious actors to exploit the network. So rest assured the developers of SAFE are thinking long and hard about these types of issues and by the time the network is released, hopefully they’ll have taken all of them into account.

David Irvine is the project creator and leader even! :slight_smile:

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My guess is the value of that will be zero in the future. There was talk about the limit of compute density being captured on the surface of a black hole. Then came work that literally proved information could be stored in an electron cloud and then the serious assertion that the storage capacity could be infinite by people who know what the word “infinite” means both mathematically and philosophically. What Q bits do to compute, Q tech is about to do to storage. It will be too cheap to meter. The network will have to draw its value out of exclusive human access points that are habitually used, sunk cost content (which it can’t keep from becoming portable) and aggregate or indirect variables of compute power, bandwidth, watts, uptime reliability, security.

But to me making people wealthy or a coin Poinzi scam as a lure is just a con game. The point of the network is building a solid commons and hitting critical mass to cut the power and money of preditory fools and psychopathic rent seekers that rely on enclosure, lock in, contract abuse and theft of attention and bribery and sponsorship-censorship-drowning out-spying to enslave and endlessly f people over with extraction and oppression for the sheer delight of delusional control. Outside of things like triple ledger transparency the point is smashing inequality regimes and their endless fraud so a coin once it has served its purpose of funding the infrastructure (which must eventually be owned by end users not rent seeking ISPs e.g. must be end user owned mesh etc.) then the coin can piss off as it won’t even be needed for vestment because the utility of the network would be obvious. Want to use it to fund a high basic income (?) fine, or interest free loans to social benefit entities or projects like closing out people’s fraudlent debt also fine. But lets be clear, SAFE itself is way more valuable than a damn currency that is harder to game.
The potential of SAFE (if nothing has changed) is about getting to a world that isn’t based on artificial scarcity and stupid money games or using money to control people.

No, you took that excerpt out of context and gleefully instigated FUD. They were discussing secure message delivery and global network stats.

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Is it just me or is there something about this @safeandsound character that seems iffy?

Is it just possible it’s an old troll back again with a new handle?

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By the time I got to the third sentence I felt trolled so it is not just you.

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I answered his first question yesterday on another topic and quickly had the same feeling like he was just here to be an asshole.

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1.-A decentralized permissionless network never makes decisions on what a node reporting but only on what a node can prove.

2.-A node that does not work properly, for example by not responding correctly to PUT requests, will be punished and eventually expelled and another will replace it. The malicious node will have spent resources to enter the network without obtaining any benefit and without being able to damage the network.

Again, as in your Maid topic, your statements demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge of how things work, if not a certain amount of maliciousness.
Very strange behavior for someone who’s just arrived.

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It’s not just you.

Look at the first post this sockpuppet made.

Banging the same old tired failing drums.

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Those are all valid points, however it is a bit shortsighted to say investment would have no utility in a ubiquitious network. It encourages participation, the biggest reason bitcoin was designed to be depreciating. Otherwise the accidental contribution that comes with participating for practical reasons is much less, take i2p for example, it remains a tiny network because the use case is much smaller within its intranet.

I dont know much about the electron cloud stuff, but storage space will certainly continue to become denser and cheaper.

Should have read the rest of the comments here, such a toxic community. I have been following this project for close to a decade now but dont actively participate. You certainly wont see adoption if that is how you treat people trying to learn.

I’m calling bullshit on this. Anyone following the project for that length of time would know the answers to the time-wasting questions you have asked.
A post in the “introduce yourself” thread may have helped too if you really had been around for that length of time.

sorry pal you are just ringing too many alarm bells. bye now.

I am muting this topic and would advise others to do so as well, let him troll in an empty room. cheers @Dimitar

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Yea, not only would they also know the answers to the same exact questions they would also know about the troll problem.

Sockpuppet is sinking to new lows.

This is a great community.
A community that pledged to keep an eye on the troll problem.
And the trolls are so easy to spot once you know about them.

Placing this here as a reminder.

“Toxic community” :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

This is the kindest most generous community on the Internet, a great bunch of people - so nice, that I even risked meeting people here in person.
You won’t find trolls at the meet ups though, cowards.

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Done.

Am leaving this room.

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@safeandsound to me you just seem like someone with questions about stuff that seem off to you or that you want to know about. I guess the oldies in this community have been jaded by trolls.

To dismissive oldies: I don’t think it’s useful to be publicly dismissive of someone just because you don’t think they are legitimate. All that does is make you—and by extension the community—look bad. And creates a bad vibe.

Responding to the questions in a good way brings more information to light and produces a good vibe. The worst case scenario is that you write out some information that might be useful to someone else surfing the web.

Doing nothing leaves the vibe as is. Which is much better better than making it worse.

These questions are not time wasting, it’s hard to find good information on this stuff, especially if you have no idea how it actually works. Hell, even MaidSafe don’t have all the answers yet.

If you don’t think it’s a legitimate person writing and you don’t like it, don’t participate. Mute the topic without proclaiming the action. That’s my opinion.

Is it really worth it to act poorly towards someone based on your belief that they’re looking to cause harm, when there’s no harm? What if they’re not trying to cause harm and you’re just making some random curious person bitter for no reason?

I would like to encourage new people to ask questions about the project and the people who run them to try and understand, and to question things about the network that seem to be obvious pitfalls for the network. But I’m not sure I’d actually recommend anyone do that if they run a real risk of being called a sockpuppet or a troll for doing so.

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Thanks for that @lukas. Not that i must defend myself to people who feel it necessary to attack newish users, but i have been loosely following this for close to a decade, i say loosely in that i will pop in every year ot so to check up on where its at, but i forget alot and alot seems to change about the project. As its getting closer to being realized i wanted to look more critically at how exactly this is going to be implemented, the core design which as of a few years ago the developers were just barely figuring out for themselves (having had to start all over with rust). So many times these projects devolve into featurecreep over the window dressings instead of working on the actual problem they set out to solve, often because the problem with the resources they have is unsolvable.

In this particular instance, a technology and currency predicated upon the idea of users providing value by providing storage space would have some idea how to solve the idea of how they intend on proving said resource, perhaps filecoin has already solved this, i am still reading through this, but it would help if the developers would be a little more focused on these particulars.

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That is very much my opinion too.

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I have seen a few posts by you, they all seemed rather negative in my opinion.
If you want answers, maybe try asking in a nice way.
Just my advice.

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Thanks @lukas for these words. I can’t agree more.

Back in the days when I was not working at MaidSafe - a community member among everyone else - I would have found those kind of messages extremely off-putting, also when not directed towards me.

I know people mean well, and wish to keep the malicious people away, but as the old saying goes: the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

If you think there’s a surge of malicious actors, maybe talk to moderators. Go out have some fresh air, maybe you’re spending too much time on the forum. It’s easy to get tunnel vision, I am super aficionado myself so I know :slight_smile:

I beg of everyone to give people the benefit of doubt, and above all try to be welcoming even when you are unsure about intentions. The loss of us “wasting our time” with giving a few polite answers too much, is by far dwarfed by the loss of attacking some random guy.

We have channels where we can discuss and assess occurrences as well, let’s take them there before we rush to conclusions.

Thanks

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