Video: devolution + safe

@ubiquitous I’m not 100% sure yet but i guess I would like to replicate the way the safenetwork charges for write operations. Of course, I can also charge for other stuff such posting updates etc. Providing users realize there is a benefit to using the app this shouldn’t be an issue. I’m a bit busy with other stuff at the moment but i’ll look into it in more detail when i get a chance.


@ubiquitous Tim, just to clarify, you and I have known each other on Solid chat for a while - there I am theWebalyst (my github handle) so I’m reasonably familiar with your postings, much as I am with Ian’s (@CommunityLink) here.

@CommunityLink Ian, thanks for the update. It sounds like you are making some useful connections and getting more clarity on how to get where you want to be.

I have my hands full making and playing with building blocks, and I don’t want to divert my limited time from that so I’ll remain an interested observer, helping out where I can rather than becoming more involved personally with any particular project.

Good luck with John Bruce, that could be an interesting conversation. I don’t know him really, and I don’t feel comfortable yet with Inrupt given it is dependent on future funding rounds that I assume will mean VC investment, and what appears to me a dangerous business model from the viewpoint of decentralisation. I hope to be proven wrong, but so far I see nothing concrete to dispel my concerns about that. The responses to my concerns have been few and not convincing to me, so I’m more focused on building (on SAFE and the bridge to put Solid on SAFE) now that my time is even more limited. I could do with help rather than spread myself any thinner :wink:


Very cool!

Has this been uploaded to any of the alpha or community networks? So it can be tested with multiple users etc?

Great stuff, glad to see more things coming out :+1:

Cool, will watch shortly.

What sort of marketing will you be doing?

Thanks @whiteoutmashups . I haven’t yet as i’m still making lots of changes to it. I’m happy to upload it later if anyone wants to look around.


Thanks @goindeep. I haven’t really thought about marketing yet as still so much dev stuff to do.


Totally understandable.

Would you be against me or anyone else doing that for you? Would be interesting to have up and see parts of it live

Whoops wrong thread…,

Would you be against me or anyone else doing that for you?

Sure, by all means :wink:

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What was the driving force for this project? To me it looks like an implementation of the venus project or chinese social credit system. I don’t get why so many different credits are used instead of only safecoin?

It is a very interesting project and much work has obviously gone into it even before we know if the safe network will actually materialize. Do you have sponsors that were asking for this product?

@whiteoutmashups BTW I tried to upload the files using the Web Hosting Manager but kept running into some strange problems, and then ran out of credits. I’m sinking a few beers now but i’ll try again over the weekend. cheers!


Amazing :space_invader:


Yes it’s kind of wonky sometimes, don’t give up!

Takes me at least several tries each time as well but eventually goes through.

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Hi Glen, the Devolution app looks terrific and might provide the natural stepping stone path to an interoperable physical & virtual world build around solid and safe. Some thoughts…

I think your point about putting enough heads together to revolutionise the political landscape is a critical which one which must be addressed upfront!! Having a clear picture upfront of the political system we want to support will assist us to design systems which enable this system/need, make it easier to get there and mitigate the risk of unintended consequences. The obvious question from here is … “what is the political system/landscape we would like the devolution/solid/safe solution help create”??

We talk of decentralised autonomous networks but what does this mean in context of the desired political system & global user ecology need? These are fundamental “Knowledge & Organisational design” issues which need to defined upfront and incorporated in our collective engineering build if we are to maximise the solid/safe opportunity. So great work in integrating these critical design issue upfront, as illustrated by your “safe.devolution” examples of international, national, business, community and citizen users applications which will be interconnected through APIs and following functionality description!!

The Principles of a Pluralist Commonwealth defined by the Next System Project appear to align with the devolution model & enabling structure you are thinking through. The paper defines two critical but distinct challenges and asks the questions

i. What system design might ultimately achieve and sustain the values of equality, genuine democracy, liberty and ecological sustainability _as a matter of inherent systemic architecture?_

ii. How specifically might it be possible to move forward, especially in difficult political times, to lay foundations for a transformation in the direction of a serious new systemic answer?

The key things they identify are
i. Need for development of new institutions especially local (which aligns with your community start point and approach where “people use the app to elect a local IT official/company. The local IT official has control over how it works and has access rights to certain parts of the app.) This also aligns with the CommunityLink Open data ecology model which involves a community owned and operated CDC (Community Development Centre) model as the community imarket operator which starts with a smart city solution for Council to create systemic income streams from DPER (default progressive expenditure reduction) efficiencies which can only be delivered by a solid/safe based solution… Business/Industries can form their own Industry Development Centre’s (IDC) as well but more of this later.
ii. A new strategy of building institutions, politics, culture and power from the bottom up is both possible and important – the only way, ultimately, to ground meaningful democratic and participatory power (David Irvine has previously described it as rebuilding interlinked communities of trust and which devolution could provide the framework for.)
iii. No one has yet come up with a serious model that might achieve both efficiency and self-directed management – and an equitable, ecological sustainable culture and system. All have flaws.

Which leads to the next big questions… How do we put enough heads together? Who should be involved? What will we achieve as an initial step? How do we fund it?

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I agree with your local community focus in order to create an proof of concept. I note that formalising the best way to integrate business, national communities, which is still a WIP, will require not only the IT solution but also an Organisation, legal and governance framework/methodology which is inbuilt to the “product” and common across the multiple communities you are seeking to engage.

This paper introduces an ”Organisation model & Legal and Governance framework/methodology” for self-organising citizens, regional, industry, national & international communities to establish their Hub/community operator and “formalise” interactions to support establishment of a Pluralist commonwealth within a safe/solid enabled CL open data network (in context of the Global Challenges Foundation search for a Design model for global cooperation ). In essense communities establish their “community entity/campus (similar to your approach where “people use the app to elect a local IT official/company) becoming partners within a national & global Limited Partnership (which provides the intra and inter community legal framework) whilst managing their localised data ownership, upgrades, security, risk and smart community transition . This enables inter community data sharing and closed loop automation within a decentralised autonomous network (i.e. safe) within and across multiple communities to support pre-defined “smart community, industry or consumer solutions” as you describe for things such as such as voting, and medical services.

Some excellent comment/question & very good points from require real design consideration
@sotros25 I particularly like its comprehensive approach to community building and management. It looks like you’ve really leveraged a systems view to think through a lot of the strategic interdependencies. A couple of questions: What is your plan for launching this dApp once the Network goes live? Are there categories of or specific communities you would approach first? Would you think of this as an institutional tool (something NGOs or NPOs, for example, might use), or would you target more general “consumer” specific communities Ike a Perhaps a hybrid strategy with potential for commercial/corporate use cases as well?

@Oetyng It seems to me all these features would not be feasible to provide from a single provider, for various reasons. That leads me to think that the system should be modular in a way that independent services can integrate with it. That way there can be n different invoicing service providers, developed and maintained by independent actors, and they can all hook into this digital system of yours (the platform) and community members can choose to use any or all of them. So that way the developers of the platform do not need to race with competition, do not need to be experts in 1000 different business areas, and always try to keep community members staying with the built in service instead of some other one.

Multi-sig is coming (and as an explicitly non-quotable estimate gave it; perhaps in alpha-4), which would allow for some of this. If you want realtime computation which do not rely on participants to be online, then there’s the route of forming a computation network, with secure membership and a consensus protocol. So, how that would look like is for example that client machines can run an executable, just like we run the SAFE Vault, where they connect and form a network (much in the same way), but instead of network agreed logic on storing data, it could be anything that your system needs to perform

@bochaco One additional thought, and probably again a question to you about how you envision this can evolve, I think one key aspect of such an app/model/concept/…, would be the possibility of getting credits from what you are good at doing, so it would be good if I can get credits from helping someone else with some stuff which I can then get for getting help from someone else that I’m not capable of doing, well…that’s what money was supposed to be for if I’m not wrong.

The Redland enterprise smart city project describes the Codemap/smart product matrix “microworld” methodology being designed to address a number of these issues and bring IOT suppliers, Industry Access, Regional Access hubs, National data administrator, International Foundation governance, Local Community Development centre, Council & residents (Personal residents account/UIA) application within one “modular” business & investment case and create a sustainable platform for the co dev team. The objective is to capture the generic application templates which are connected though API’s in the manner you illustrated e.g.
safe:// // international,
safe:// // business
safe:// // national
safe:// //local

which are recreatable in the cloning manner you describe … with the appropriate organisation/legals around it. All this is getting a bit long winded so I will comment on a number of other key issues/questions raised including how do we make money/commercial model, token economic issues, how to bring people around this with funding etc in further communications.

Looking forward to discussing further :grinning:Once again great work!

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@Glen_Simister in case it is of interest:

Valueflows - vocabulary for distributed economic networks

BTW how’s things?


Hey Glen, sorry not been back in touch. Hoping to have more time to put into my own contributions in this field after June, it’s not something I want to do half cocked and am finishing other commitments atm. Great to see others on a similar path and the layouts looks excellent.

My programming focus initially is getting a reliable voting platform implemented. I’m going onto my third Javascript book (out of 6) so even that will be a big task but it’s something I know others are working on. Then link the voting to hierarchical structures and that will be a solid foundation.

Need to read the link above later. How exactly this type of work should be funded, or indeed if it needs to be, is an interesting question; presumably it would make it happen faster. Eventually I want society’s value system to replace capital with production time, but that day is obviously not nigh. Though I still don’t see how governance applications can make good investments without compromising themselves, so I guess charities or grants would be the only sensible routes. Even then it’s difficult to maintain integrity, and it would need a roster of trusted participants.

Edit: This final paragraph could’ve been elaborated better. P2P funding, be it charity or otherwise, I think is a valid route. My main reason for not thinking governance applications (on Maidsafe) currently make good investments, is due to their open-source nature and dependence on a lot of other factors, most importantly the Maidsafe project itself being successful. I also see the core Maidsafe team working on providing the main features desired by these apps so I think the best investment at the moment would be focused in their direction until the network is up and running.


Thanks @happybeing. At a first glance it looks really interesting. I’ll need to go through it in a bit more detail. I’m ok but I haven’t been online much recently hence why i’m a bit late responding.

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Thanks for your comments @CommunityLink. My apologies for not getting back sooner. When i posted this i had taken some time off work. Now that i’m back to the grind i don’t have as much time/energy to focus on this project. I’ll try to get back to you soon with a more detailed response. cheers! :slight_smile:


Does devolution involve the concept of ‘credit piggybacking’ ?