The concept is sound, near perfect. The aplication is yet to be determined. Mass adoption and therefore sucess is dependant not upon Troon’s skillset moreover being in the right place at the right time. If you want to change the World, you can’t do it unless the World wants to be changed and even if you insist, you can’t do it unless you have the backing of the big guns who will say no.
I just can’t see an easy ride for MS as the incumbent powers have so much influence.
I’m sorry. What exactly is your point?
No probs. My point is that even with the best will in the world, I am concerned that government will always find a way to quash projects like this.
They have yet to quash bitcoin. The power of decentralization is awesome. Look up Andreas Antonopolus’ “dumb networks” on youtube. So simple, but it really put things in a great perspective for me.
Bitcoin: Dumb Networks, Innovation and the Festival of the Commons - YouTube Looked it up for you.
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I’m a big fan of Andreas and have spent many an hour listening to him on Letstalkbitcoin!. I am wanting to play Devil’s Advocate with a simple message. Sometimes a great idea and application doesnt always lead to positive outcome. This gig is no certainty and there are many pitfalls ahead. In order for the project to become successfull it needs to meet with certain criteriea above and beyond the computer wizardry deadlines that the team are challenging. So this is a project in the making which is set to have a profound effect on civilisation. I’m just saying, “they” are gonna have an issue with that.
I feel your hopelessness. Sincerely. It can all seem overwhelming. It’s meant to seem that way. That’s the whole shadow game.
But I would posit that “the world” (if you mean people generally) DOES “want to change”. Remember that “government” and even “the world” are just concepts. They actually have no substance. Yeah, there are people with guns and banks, etc., etc. But there is no such THING as “government”. It’s only people and ideas, and the actions that people take.
And people really do want Privacy, Security and Freedom, whether they are thinking about it or not.
The internet is enabling much change for the better, even while casting a net.
The SAFE network will succeed if it gets going, regardless of sniping, because it is superior tech, and it delivers what people need and want, even if they don’t know it.
Is it a sure thing? Never. Is it doomed? Far, far from it.
Cheer up and start to consider what you can do with the tools.
Having read your last, I have zero desire to continue as I was. A sincere thanks for the way you articulated your reply. A lesson learned. Are you sure you aren’t my big brother, you sound just like him, lol. I’m just butthurt from btc investents that turned sour. While that might sound selfish, I don’t care, because I have only invested in stuff I believe in. David’s LTB podcast whle I was driving from London to Motherwell had me pulling over on the motorway service station in a frenzy. Still I’d be happy to discuss scenarios that might result in a MS failure.
Hey fergish, thanks for your time on the forum.
Please explain what you mean when you mentioned, “It’s meant to seem that way. That’s the whole shadow game.”
What is, “It’s…”, and what is, “…shadow game.”.
I’m more interested to discover your thoughts on the former, “IT’S…”. What is it?
Kind regards
Why would they want to do that? I think you might be mixing up government, and fungus (little groups of rogues) inside some governments? 
I was feeling more like a wise uncle.
[quote=“magpie, post:7, topic:3838”]
David’s LTB podcast whle I was driving from London to Motherwell had me pulling over on the motorway service station in a frenzy.
[/quote]Not sure which podcast you’re talking about.
[quote=“magpie, post:7, topic:3838”]
Still I’d be happy to discuss scenarios that might result in a MS failure.
[/quote]We’re always up for that. Attack scenarios are always good to explore, and have resulted in improved architecture, I’m sure.
[quote=“magpie, post:8, topic:3838”]
Hey fergish, thanks for your time on the forum.
[/quote]It is ever my pleasure.
[quote=“magpie, post:8, topic:3838”]
Please explain what you mean when you mentioned, “It’s meant to seem that way. That’s the whole shadow game.”
What is, “It’s…”, and what is, “…shadow game.”.
I’m more interested to discover your thoughts on the former, “IT’S…”. What is it?
[/quote]Ah, now things get deep and interesting. Well, reality can seem that way, anyway, when you start seeing past what you know is real and see better what actually IS.
(possible tl:dr alert! For those who don’t like parsing philosophical)
Hate to be trite, but The Matrix is a better and better allegory for real life, the more you draw the parallels. “It’s” is used in a passive sentence construction there, so it basically means “the way things are made to be.” The actors are not named, and not particularly important. The point isn’t who but what. (But if one must have a “who” think of the girl in the red dress. If this requires explanation, see The Matrix again.)
Ideas are what shape our view of the world, at least as much as what actually is there, probably more. My point is that concepts such as “the government” and “authority” are just that: concepts/ideas that give us ways to talk about things that don’t actually exist. There is no actually entity referred to by the term “government”, though we assign it a substance in our own minds when we speak of it as an objective thing. But it’s not, really. It’s people, and buildings, and guns, and uniforms, etc., that serve as evidence of the idea of government, but there really is no place you can isolate the United States, or the United Kingdom, or whatever.
A popular way to look at the same thing more clearly is that there is lots and lots of evidence of Santa Claus around each December. To kids who aren’t in on the gag, Santa has A LOT more reality than “the United (whatever)”. That is, until the kid sees through the gag and graduates into the ranks of those who find it a quaint tradition, and give it a wink.
Concepts like government have precisely the same philosophical and objective validity. It’s just that the bulk of people are still kids in relationship to the ruse. At the best, some people wake up to it but still support it as a useful form of organizing, lacking general agreement on any better way (though there are plenty, if people are seeing reality more clearly).
This has all sorts of ramifications, especially when you consider that the things we allow to be done in the name of government are things that we would condemn and fight violently if done by individuals. But there are no actions of “government”, only those of individuals. The majority holding belief in this fantasy allows atrocities to be committed, large and small, which could not be committed otherwise, i.e., if individuals were holding themselves responsible for their own actions and hold others similarly responsible.
Anyway, that’s all the lesson I’ll expound on that point for now. If you want a great primer on the point read “The Most Dangerous Superstition” by Larken Rose.
So, how does this all relate to why SAFE is so cool? The SAFE Network will allow individuals a tremendous increase in personal autonomy, in their data, in their communication of ideas, in their exchanges of value (via safecoin and otherwise), at a level only hinted at by the internet so far.
Yeah, the bullies who benefit from the shadow we call government (amongst other similar illusions) are not going to like having their mind-control monopoly challenged. They already don’t like it with the internet as it has come to be, even though they certainly hold out hope and are taking actions to use the internet to subjugate. Some of the elite have been heard to say the the internet was a bad idea. It’s already largely out of their control and they are scrambling to put a lid on it and use it to institute massive mind control. On some fronts they’re succeeding. But on others they’re failing. They’re being exposed as bullies. Not everybody sees, but more and more do.
Many individuals want to retain their belief in Santa. But once the lie is exposed, it’s just not the same anymore. We’re winning that battle anyway, even without SAFE, though it’s not as apparent as it might be. SAFE and other decentralizing efforts work to return power (and responsibility) to individuals, whether they realize the full implication of that or not.
Oops. I seem to have written an article. I guess I’ll have to tidy it up and post it at the Crossroads! 
I think the team has made a good point and worked hard at what we all see as the secure and freeing revolutionary tech, to be running under the hood. It’s a feature rich app that will look great. If it functions and easily serves a purpose people will use it
Let me answer your points and refute you:
“Mass adoption and therefore sucess is dependant not upon Troon’s skillset moreover being in the right place at the right time”
This is usually true as a general rule for marketable products. But MaidSafe is not a typical company that is enslaved by the whims of the demand.
In fact, the whole crowdsourcing concept is turning the business world upside down, by allowing the nucleation of likeminded people (niches) and bring a traditionally non-marketeable product to market.
In the same way crowdsourcing is enabling niche idealist projects, that might be way ahead to its time for the common people, become a reality.
As I mentioned before, if Nikola Tesla was alive today he would had successfully finished his Wardenclyffe Tower through crowdfunding from likeminded idealists, but unfortunately he didn’t have the means that we currently enjoy and he was a prisoner of the market (JP Morgan cut his funding because he didn’t see how free electricity and worldwide radio station would make him any money.)
“If you want to change the World, you can’t do it unless the World wants to be changed”
You can change the World’s opinion despite the resistance of the masses, IF you are right and they can’t see it yet.
How can you change the opinion of the masses who are too stupid to realize they are stupid?
The trick is by staying long enough until they notice you, then by staying longer enough until they are familiar with you, and then they won’t let you go because it is impractical to be without you.
“and even if you insist, you can’t do it unless you have the backing of the big guns who will say no.”
Let me tell you an example.
There was a wimpy kid in school who bullyied me verbally, but he was damn clever about it.
I was way stronger than him and I doubled him in size, but every time I wanted to escalate it physically he would simply state: hey what the hell are you doing, I never touched you, don’t touch me.
This was my first lesson on politics, from a wimpy bully.
The lesson: You may paralyze the guns if you can make it look like an abusive move which in turn would get illegitimized by the peers.
Muscles isn’t everything, you can fight it with the brain.
“I just can’t see an easy ride for MS as the incumbent powers have so much influence.”
“The powers” in terms of decentralization, the P2P is winning the war.
We started with MP3, we learned the lessons with Napster, we evolved through eDonkey, until we got BitTorrent and now file sharing is as unstoppable as the forces of nature.
With the lessons learned in BitTorrent, we got inspired and created the proof-of-concept of a decentralized monetary system: BitCoin.
In six years of existence, it grew stronger than ever.
Society always follows technology.
The fruition of new technology used to be restrained by the market, but in the information era: its been unleashed.
MaidSafe, if technically successful, will become an indomitable force of nature.
It’s the corporations we need to fear more than governments.
With things like NAFTA, GATT and now the TPP “free trade” agreements, they (the corporations) are circumventing governments.
This is why we need things like MaidSafe more than ever…
We have to request permission to evolve? I guess I missed a meeting…lol
[quote=“piluso, post:12, topic:3838”]
The trick is by staying long enough until they notice you, then by staying longer enough until they are familiar with you, and then they won’t let you go because it is impractical to be without you.
[/quote] I love this statement it encapsulates the evolution of every great development. When electricity first became available many people simply didn’t see the point… ‘its too dangerous’… ‘the way we do things now works fine, so why mess with something that isn’t broken’ etc. This technology once successfully launched will create an anti-fragile, censorship resistant online community with a true digital cash. I can’t see how the downsides outweigh the upsides. Adoption may come slowly but it will come, the utility is simply too useful not to. The key will be an exceptionally friendly UI.
I hope you can see the contradiction in your statements here. NAFTA, et al, are conditions declared and backed by the guns of government. Of course, corporations exert influence on governments to make such brutalities as favorable to them as possible, and even to institute them in the first place. But it’s the “power of government” which is the tool. Without it, how many armies would Walmart have, or Monsanto, etc.? And if they did have armies, who would view such armies as legitimate? How profitable would it be for Walmart to maintain such?
And don’t forget that corporations are creatures which are granted “personhood” by decree of government, thus shielding the responsible human actors from liability for their own actions.
It is the belief in government that makes these things possible.
Do you see what I mean?
I think magpie has a point—not so much about governments squashing the effort; I think P2P with good cyrpto is stronger than governments.
I think the main problem is that most people simply don’t care about stuff like surveillance or massive corporations that control just about everything (Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon etc.).
I learned that when I tried to get people to move away from Facebook. There are so good alternatives, like, to a lesser extent, Diaspora, and, much better, RedMatrix, which has fascinating stuff like remote authentication to servers that are not the ones you created your account on—simply put, you can share everything from posts (social networking) over photos and videos to any plain old file, and control who is able to see the files, and all that decentralized, it doesn’t matter which server in the Matrix someone has an account on.
But people are not interested. About 97% of them never even react to posts advertising the better system, the rest say that they don’t want to create a login at yet another system. 1 in about 500 actually tries the system, from those who do, 70% say it’s too complex. (Ever tried to understand how to use Facebook for anything but completely public posts, and control what others can see? Now THAT’S a point where it REALLY gets complex!) The rest simply don’t like it or give up soon because nobody else came. But 80% of my contacts when I still used Facebook were constantly bickering about how they hated Facebook, and about privacy concerns they had.
Well, I stopped trying to persuade people. It doesn’t work. Simply not enough interest there.
I think that Maidsafe will have a similar problem. There is some hope in the fact that the development is done by a company, as opposed to some enthusiasts in their spare time in networks like RedMatrix—that might create more attention, and I do guess there will be thousands of users within days after the launch of the first installers.
But millions or even billions? I sure hope that will come, but I fear that too many people are just too lazy and uninterested.
Safenetwork is a very different proposition to diaspora v Facebook.
It isn’t either / or, because there are many reasons for someone to start using SAFE, without giving up any other service/app. This means signing up is an entirely positive decision, not something that involves a loss, and certainly not dependent on privacy and security, unless that is the reason for a particular person.
SAFE is a platform, and while it will support many/all existing kinds of service with added features, people will adopt it for all kinds of other things that they don’t already have a way to do. I believe we’re going to see some mind blowing innovations, and that these will attract users because there isn’t an existing way to do them, and once that starts, the rest builds momentum too.