The SAFE DAO - Funding early stage innovation on the SAFE network


#1

So EOS raised $4 billion to for EOS. But most of this money is actually going to be used to incentivize developers to build on their network.

No matter what you think of EOS, that’s real money to pay people to build the DApps of tomorrow. A kind of crypto VC fund directting innovation towards their blockchain…

Ethereum grew primarily by ICO’s, the ability to raise money and build easily on ethereum,

Furthermore the Ethereum Foundation works with other blockchains like Augur and Golem to help make interoperability easy as the projects progress.

Bitcoin had a bunch of rich early adopters who originally put funds back into bitcoin development until the splitting and in fighting took over.

But part of the reason for the alt-coin rise was developers could make more money creating their own cryptocurrency, rather than building on bitcoin - the one flaw that Satoshi didn’t account for.

My point is this…

As Maidsafe approaches the latter stages of development and works its way through the Alpha and Beta stages, we want as many developers to start to get involved and understanding the unique capabilities of the network.

In that way the network hits the ground running from an ‘ordinary user’ point of view. people who just surf around to see whats there.

Of course, you can just take the ‘build it and they will come’ approach.

But - and I’m no developer so I could have this wrong - that would rely on a smaller subset of ‘true believers’ working for peanuts in the hope the network ‘made it’ eventually and rewarded them in time.

There’s nothing wrong with that. It might just take longer?

But what if the current community could instead invest in developers now in return for a percentage split of any future potential Pay The Producer (PTP) rewards down the line.

Someone wants to build a Decentralised YouTube? Great here;s some cash to build it. If its popular the developer forfeits 10% of the future PTP rewards…

Want to make a ‘Wordpress for Safe’? - Great here’s some funds, but we’ll take 15% of future PTP reward… etc etc

It’s almost like Maidsafe’s own ICO process but in return for actually building interesting and cool stuff for eventual users on the network.

It might attract developers to start getting started early in Maidsafe.

Like right now!

And it would allow early adopters that aren’t necessarily developers - like me :wink: - to grab a stake in some cool ‘built for Maidsafe’ sites.

It might even make the DAO a popular marketing vehicle for maidsafe itself!

After all, most of the interest in crypto is self-interest. It tends to lead the thinking!

I thought DAO type structure might be good for this idea. That way funds could be pooled and directed using the ‘wisdom of the crowd.’ And it would also open up a marketplace for developer ‘pitches’ in a free market environment.

It’d be cool if you could build this on SAFE now but if not, it can be done on ethereum or another platform until the network is capable…

Thoughts?
Bad idea?
Good idea?
Timing issues?
Or completely unnecessary maybe?

Happy to get some feedback…


#2

I think you are think of PtD rewards - Pay The Developer

PtP is not certain even though it may be good for attracting quality content for the network. This is talking of developing and that is what PtD is designed for

Have you read up on the community project scheme that Maidsafe have in this forum? CEP - Community Engagement Program that has had 2 projects so far and as we get further down the development of SAFE it will increase.


#3

I am a developer myself albeit I have no focus/specialty on decentralization or how to build a website that does not use a DB’s on safe. But I intend to do so once the network is really 100% live(bindings change, api’s change, implementations improve). I choose to not be first to market over not wasting my time redoing implementations. Also as an investor I would rather wait till I see a live network before working with other developers. But heck yeah I would like to be first mover in a few spaces as a developer or investor. Netflix on SAFE, Crypto Exchange on SAFE, E-Commerce on SAFE. All these things are vital apps that need to be created shortly after the network is live. And some of them I am not quiet frankly sure if they can even BE implemented on the first live network as I understand it but hopefully over time the clouds clear and implementation is straightforward and known.


#4

No cool I’ll check that out. A ‘kickstarter’ idea sounds good too…


#5

yeah that’s what I thought of from the point of view of creating general (and I mean outside this forum) excitement amongst the average punters.

Nothing turns people into believers like a financial stake in the success of a product!

The pitch would be a sort of 'second chance to get in on the ground floor of the ‘new internet.’


#6

Not to sound pessimistic, but if you want to build something for real? Do it! you don’t need investors their money. When you have proven that you can really code, the money can come. Right now, SAFE app investors get, no monthly updates, no insight in money usage and no possibility to exchange their tokens if they no longer believe in your project. Please do not feel offended if your just coding your SAFE project.

Imho existing or future succesful SAFE Network projects should fund, new project so that the individual investors don’t get burned. In the future we’ll fund new SAFE projects, but only in exchange for 10% of their tokens going to our token holders. They’ll get advertising space in our app, for the duration of their crowdsale for starters. If you thought that your token was to only be used in your project :crazy_face: you can also use it to fund other projects, increasing the value of the ecosystem. This is not my bright idea, it’s what some Ethereum projects do at this moment.

In the future devs will just farm to pay their bills and just create apps, so the SAFE Network itself is a funding mechanism.

If I could create apps, I would start working on it right now. The more mistakes you make, the more you learn and better you get. Solidity is significantly improved by one of it’s early experimenters Openzeppelin, now they even got an ZeppelinOS bringing smartcontracts creation to the next level.

:stuck_out_tongue:


#7

Not sure if is best way all apps and websites built from zero again, when we have already nice ones on Internet.
Would be much easier to make tool to help transform back end and move it from https:// to safe://

We also need not one app or web sites for one thing, but as many as possible that everyone can choose what he like.


#8

Yes I was wondering about this.

Is it possible?


#9

We’ve already had attempts to address this issue (funding developers) but all ran out of steam because the people weren’t able to put in the effort to keep it going much beyond brainstorming hours it could work. So for now we’re left with PtD.

So what is missing IMO is somebody who can and will commit themselves to driving such an initiative forward whatever it takes. The actual mechanism is secondary IMO, that will come right in the end if there is somebody who just won’t give up and is willing to do all the less fun, hard work to get it there. In a word, leadership.


#10

The “Time To Market” is the unknown here and has been for years. Blockchain developers are making 6$ figures today and in many cases reaping the rewards of early coin distribution.

Yes. But you are correct to suggest…

You will see a very different reaction from the many developers interested in this project when it launches and performs exactly as it promises. Until then -possibly another year or more - Maidsafe is more spectator sport, investment opportunity.


#11

Thanks all for the replies and thoughts.

I still think this is an important and viable idea. And I’d be happy to drive it, once I can flesh it out a bit more and think it through properly.

Like I said in the OP, big pocketed competitors have got funds to incentivize developers right now. So it would be great if Maidsafe had a popular driver of developer interests too (I’ll check out more on the CEP too, maybe that’s the answer for now?)

But as @happybeing said the main problem isn’t the idea. Its having someone with the time and energy to push through the problems and really drive it.

So instead of bugging everyone with a half baked idea, in the meantime I’ll do some more research into as many aspects as I can specifically around:

  1. API’s and developer tools timelines through development stages
  2. PtD scheme mechanics (and pay the producer)
  3. Intrinsic benefits of Maidsafe as a developer platform (ie the recent github-Microsoft buy out issues for a lot of developers who want control of their own work)…and more suggestions here would be good…
  4. Specifics of any incentive scheme (DAO, kickstarter, ICO models etc)
  5. Anything else I’ve missed out?

I am very familiar with a lot of the SAFE netwrok but will have a look around here to join any dots or clarify any misconceptions I may have still.

If I get stuck I’ll post it here and hopefully some one can point me in the right direction :slight_smile:

Cheers all…


#12

Speaking of EOS:


#13

While it is unfortunate, I can’t feel sorry. Nor would this not be possible on safe.

Rule #1: never give out your private keys. Ever.

Same scam could happen on safe asking people to enter secret and password.

Education is paramount. For safe “only ever enter secret and pass into safe auth”. Nevertheless, it’s still going to happen on safe because people won’t listen / look / pay attention.


#14

This summer I will fund a company to start build products on the safenetwork.
I have to admit that funds are an issue, but more importantly the inability for the safenetwork team to provide information about overall progresses is my biggest concern. They deliver weekly updates, but who can tell what is left to do ? I did expect a delivery by summer 2019 but now I feel it is more likely a delivery will happen far later, 2021 maybe ?


#15

I don’t think that estimation is inaccurate, I’m thinking about the same. At least at that point it should be much much easier for app devs to have a clear view of the future.


#16

A quick question for anyone who’s dwelt on this…

How does the infrastructure of the SAFE network change the very idea of WHAT can be created. As opposed to just improving upon HOW existing ideas can be improved.

For example Ethereum promises improvements on processes on one hand, but on the other also allows the formation of new concepts like Digital Autonomous Organizations (DAOs).

Any examples or thought experiments would be good…

I suppose I’m trying to see where the positive reach of total user control over privacy can extrapolate to, as opposed to only ‘fixing’ the problems of an existing web of invasive power.

I’d imagine this would be relevant to attracting developer interest in some ways too.


#17

Hi @Dinsey, see this blog post:


#18

Perfect @dimitar just what I was after. Cheers


#19

This is a great article! Thanks for sharing! A paradigm shift means more than iterative improvements to an existing system. This article does an excellent job of illustrating how The SAFE Network is more than just data storage, more than just a decentralized internet; SAFE is an autonomous network that changes the rules of the game to open up new opportunities for innovation across many different industries.

The SAFE Network is so game changing that right now, in the absence of a more complete network, it’s difficult for people to wrap their heads around all of the possibilities the SAFE Network can transform into realities. Touch makes the abstract concrete. Creativity to drive towards truly disruptive innovation will flourish as the network nears launch, allowing the market to play with what they once thought impossible.


#20

Totally agree @Sotros25

As tends to be my habit, my research into incentivizing developer activity on SAFE has instead led to a search for the deeper meaning behind SAFE!

i mean I’ve known about SAFE for years and I’ve believed in the idea.

But over time, its easy to get glib over ideas like ‘privacy’ and ‘control over your own data.’

You know they’re important…but they don’t necessarily jump out at you…except in cases where your own data or privacy has been personally violated. The recent revelations behind how centralized data is easily used by corrupt entities (ie Facebook) helps highlight this more in some ways.

But that’s a reaction against a negative. I wanted to focus on the pull effect of positive uses.

So, drawing inspiration from Davids blog piece, I tried to re-imagine how certain businesses could work different on SAFE.

Was ownership of data part of their original function? Or just a necessary constraint we could now do away with? And if we did away with it, how would that change the nature of the industry…?

So I sketched out a few flow diagrams (in industries like of social media, banking, insurance, search engines etc), to follow the trails of data ownership and how the data is used along the way. And to see how it might work differently on the SAFE network.

As I drew out maps of multi-sig data chains (Mutable data in safe talk), with varying degrees of access, write-ability and governance rules, across different business concepts, I suddenly had a bit of an epiphany…

It came from a famous phrase in the Dostoevsky novel - The Brothers Karamazov

’If there is no God, everything is permitted.'

You see as I drew out various user models for current businesses I realised most user functionality was possible already on the current net. The illusion of segmentation, access control and flexible platform flexibility was there in theory.

As long as you trusted the platform owners themselves. On the platform, they had the power of ‘God’.

SAFE doesn’t necessarily change whats possible per se (though at a system level it actually does through its autonomous nature as David’s blog post describes).

But in my diagrams, the SAFE network versions allowed me to remove the ‘box’.

What I mean is, there was no need to place the data chain diagrams ‘somewhere’. I didn’t have to trust anyone. There was no ‘box’ for the data chains to sit in.

On SAFE, there was no ‘God.’

Again I knew this before…

But suddenly visualising the act of taking ‘God’ out of the equation and realising the network would still function without it made the concept of SAFE a visceral thing.

This was a scary yet exhilarating thought to me…the same concepts of ‘privacy’ and data sovereignty’ suddenly made vivid and limitless…

I understood the concept before.

But now I truly ‘got’ it…

Anyway, I thought I’d share this as it excited me at a deeper philosphical level.

I’ll continue to think on how a world where ‘everything is permitted’ changes the structures of existing business models (As David’s post above did - you should read it if you haven’t already!)…and then finally I might have something useful to say on how the incentivisation of developers on this ground breaking platform could perhaps work.