The Price of Safecoin & The Economics Behind It

I like most of what you lay out here, but I think that the idea of tying to any fiat currency or even other commodity would be a mistake. It’s something that safecoin couldn’t do in any case, at least not in it’s nature. Safecoin already represents the most valuable of commodities: the data and interconnection and interaction of all people (potentially), in a secure, private-by-default manner = the key components of freedom for people. Can’t get much better than that as far as a valuable commodity to be linked to.

With that as a basic fact of the netowrk and currency, the rest pretty much follows.

When a state creates a currency and then forces everyone to accept settlement in it (especially taxes owed) then it may as well be an invention of the state.

I agree that a state isn’t needed to create money though.

Know Your Merchant - When a person sets out to make a purchase, in our modern society we have several avenues to do this, they are as such ebay, amazon, alibaba, to name a few. They come lock stock with a picture, a user, and a price. The location of the merchant is usually known. When someone posts a product they expect a sale by someone, and anyone. When a customer makes a purchase they are now at the mercy of the merchant and their policies. Along with that merchants’ policy which “could change at any moment”. Think about Bernard Madoff, hundreds of people surrendered to him their own money based on a crowd effect. This effect would not exist if the customers knew precisely what the hell that guy even did. Though the society is the other way around where Madoff’s job was to simply ensure that his customers were accredited or qualified. And the government takes care of the rest. Afterwards everyone was dumbfounded and pissed off. This is not how society is meant to run. If you want to invest in someone or something or want to buy something a customer should make a thoroughly conscious decision to conduct that transaction and have no need for endless recourse. Lawsuits are not meant to interfere with peoples’ lives for years or tens of years. A friend handed over the whole farm 100 mill usd to merrill lynch - and so. Now flies in every three months to follow up on the lawsuit. It’s been 4 years now, if he didn’t fall for a few smooth talkers and some lofty guarantees that money will magically get created he’s out of pocket the whole inheritance. This being said, if such friend knew what the hell exactly they were doing then his problem would not be.

Standards of quality should be considered always, and if you get delivered quality products from a merchant one would naturally always approach that merchant.

A SafeCoin is essentially denominated by the resources of the network, and because the resources of the network are such valuable utilities there is essentially no need for fiat transmission, the idea of have programmable smart contracts is simple and easy to emulate in the SAFE Network with a simple github like reveal of the source code to a contract. Just for example.

If people were to do their own homework they would live more fulfilling lives, and what they choose to do will be real to themselves.

This is why I am proposing a system and not only am I talking about it, I am also walking it out. This system will empower people to evade the seduction of illusions, and it will endorse the honestly of merchants, and organizations to the maximum extent.
Versus the status quo, of “let’s screw anyone and everyone until we get noticed, and then hopefully we don’t get punished > than what we ‘stole’”

I imagine that should it be possible to purchase computational resources through the SAFE Network or to mobilize computational resources through the SAFE Network, many computation problems could be solved instantaneously, and then offlined as they are completed without the need to construct “the latest soon to be non state of the art supercomputer” to accomplish goals related to research, optimization, analysis. etc.

Money is a proof system that prevents individuals from maliciously extracting from the society excesses. That is why there are so few rich, and so many less rich. That is why objects are ‘priced’ at what people can afford to pay, and at the maximum versus what objects reasonably cost. That is why if you ear 50,000 usd per year, you will expend an identical proportion of your funds on necessities as everyone else… no one can buy out all the tee shirts in the store, or all the eggs in the grocers for example.

It is basically a material goods DDoS prevention system. With latest anti-money laws… and the impossibility to get even 2,000 out of your own bank accounts without a 45 minute delay is attributed to the sanction of governments DDoSing possible terrorism threats. No money, no stuff, no stuff, no terror… simple.

This also leads to: No money, no stuff, no stuff, no innovation… shit.

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I realized that this thread shares a goal with

Is it possible to merge these two each one asks the question which probably leads to the same conclusions.

The other thread is a FAQ so best to keep that.

I’ll close it and direct people here who want to continue the discussion.

I’m not sure if that will stop people editing the FAQ so let’s see! :slight_smile:

I had prepared this response on the related FAQ thread, but it closed before posting, so I’m putting it over here.

I think we’ll find that safecoin has some different dynamics than you’re taking into account. The concerns you voice largely center around State power, and those who use it to exert broad control over social and political groups.

The beauty of the cryptocurrency concept in general is that it can be a broad-based, voluntary means of exchanging value that has the potential to make the control mechanisms of the “money masters” irrelevant, because it lacks central control or authority.

The problem with Bitcoin and other crypto in general is that it has a real distribution barrier. Bitcoin mining was cool in the earlier days but it’s not a means of getting a lot of bitcoin out in the hands of people at large. Other altcoins have tried to adjust for this but haven’t gotten there in a really meaningful way.

This leaves a huge chokepoint: the necessity to exchange heavily controlled fiat currency for the crypto in order to make it available broadly. This exposes them very much to currency manipulation.

Enter safecoin. People all over the world already use the devices necessary to run the software necessary to access the SAFE network. Running that software has a value to those people quite aside from earning safecoin: it secures their data and communications, privacy and anonyimity, and much more. I’d venture to say that there are enough privacy/security/anonymity concerned people around the world to run a secure implementation of the SAFE network all by themselves, just because they want the features.

Add much, much broader adoption due to convenience, the fact that it’s no strain on people’s already-in-use resources, AND the ability to earn a currency which is essentially digital cash (even if pennies, at first) and we have something that looks very different than anything in existence so far.

Exchanges will come into existence, but they won’t dominate or very much manipulate the value of safecoin, I think. Safecoin will have a scarcity which will increase with time, but won’t start so scarce that you have to jump through hoops to get some and start using it. It will be generated while doing what you’d be doing anyway–i.e., communicating, saving you data securely, etc.

Safecoin will not replace Bitcoin or fiat quickly and dramatically, if ever. It will first permeate, then find relative value, then increase in value.

These are some of the reasons I’m not worried about manipulation of safecoin value. It’s rather resistant, out of the box, and will sneak up on everyone in its effect. So I perceive, anyway.

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Great post @fergish Some great points I hadn’t thought of, must add them to my list of Safecoin differentiators… better start that list :wink:

EDIT: done!

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Thanks everyone for your input to my earlier posts. Firstly I want to make perfectly clear that I’m not in favour of independently run exchanges, they’re the means by which enemies will attack the MaidSafe facility and SafeCoin. I’d like to think that somehow Safecoin transactions outside the MaidSafe community were invalid/null and void. And if that was the case or is intended to be the case, then is it correct to assume that the price of all Safecoin on issue at any given time can only consist of the sum of the cost of computer resources allocated to the network plus a premium for all the beneficial attributes?

If so is it correct to assume that the sum of the computer resources allocated to the network will be a pretty stable cost and should only change when the size of the network changes?

Is it correct to presume that the premium for all the beneficial attributes is the sum of all the community members’ subjective assessments of their value?

Now is it correct to assume that if one hasn’t acquired Safecoin via the crowd sale the only Safecoin a participant can possess to buy food shelter, fuel, clothing, education, health-care and so on ad infinitum is what one has left after having paid for use of the computing resources of the network?

It seems to me that if the abovementioned assumption is correct then the utility of Safecoin may be unnecessarily constricted. I’d appreciate receipt of explanations and views as to how that constriction can be removed so that the volume and/or value of Safecoin could become the global currency of choice for everyone.

In my plan for absorbing fiat currency there is no suggestion of an “idea of tying to any fiat currency…” What I said in describing how the elastic currency comes into existence and is redeemed is that there are only two ways in which the negotiable trade credit (NTC) can be created and one by which it is capable of redemption. i) buy buying and selling commodities goods and services within the community; ii) by issue of NTCs by TelelinkGlobal in exchange for gold which is held in trust for the community. NTCs issued by i) and ii) above rank pari passu. This process is facilitated smoothly by existing community members with surplus fiat currency purchasing gold from a licensed mint/gold dealer community member and then assigning ownership of the gold to TelelinkGlobal upon issue of the NTC equivalent value. Note! It is the members of the community who collectively ‘back the currency’, not the gold held in trust for the community members. The gold is a reserve and assists to stabilise the currency value".

The only gold that is interesting anymore, is the kind that is used inside the CPU pins; or the RAM; or where ever else you could add some added conductivity :wink:

You’ve got it backwards: an exchange run by MaidSafe would be about the BEST way to attack both the company and safecoin.

Most of what you’re saying reflects a very hierarchical perspective of the world. I’d recommend further digging as to the actually philosophy behind the SAFE network, as well as working to understand how the whole thing works, at least from a broad conceptual level if you’re not too technical – like me.

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All this gold hype(Peter Schiff, Mike Maloney) is ridiculous. I don’t want to support miners digging up gold to store in someone’s vault. For one its destructive to the environment, its difficult to transport and its mainly used for storing wealth. Due to its colourful history, people can’t seem to move on. The value of gold will soon be measured by its utility and not by its ability to off-set inflation; that is what crypto-currencies are for.

Money is only used for bookkeeping.

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I don’t know anymore when I was a kid I met that guy peter schiff and he was not impressive; and it seems like he never talks about anything else. So, idk;

I like processors, problem solving, activity, UDP Keep Alive Packets,@Benefactors nonactivity when the coast is clear; etc,

@dirvine thanks for keeping it together @SAFE Network @MaidSafe

@deflationtostabilisation @hamiltino

Money is just only bookkeeping.

SafeCoin is network bookkeeping; CPUs and Motherboards and RAM each have gold in it. I think if peter schiff figured that one out I’d change my stance on his opinions.

Not to mention SafeCoin is just only a slice of this project.

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You can’t even spell it properly.

It’s not. It’s commonly recognized that there are 3 functions of money.
And why is this even being discussed under this topic?

What’s your problem mate? Can’t you recognize patterns? It seems you just don’t like me and so you are are trying to vent that. What are you a spelling Nazi, grow up you Self-righteous know-it all.

If you disagree with what I say, that is fine, but to belittle me, I am not ok with that.

Money is a way for society to allocate resources, bookkeeping is a term I used to describe this. bookkeeping as in who is entitled to how much resources.

Yes I agree, government collects taxes and allocates it to where the lobbyists would like it to go and is accounted for with double entry accounting.

Now we have Bitcoin, which utilizes 3D/Triple Entry accounting, which can be utilized to track and allocate resources perfectly. So in effect a 3D public ledger is perfect for keeping all levels of government accountable.

So if we do go digital with our money, it will then rightly be regarded as purely book entries I would think.

We’ve been well weaned off of regarding money as a store of value, fungible divisible etc …but I do like silver :slight_smile:

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I don’t have anything against you, my reply was based on that individual comment. Let’s see:

  1. You called others ridiculous, and when someone points a mistake in your spelling, you call them a spelling Nazi. How did I belittle you by pointing out a mistake, and you played “fair” by calling others ridiculous (the latter seems worse and it’s based in fact)?
  2. You went completely off-topic. I asked you why are you doing this, you didn’t respond.
  3. You made a factual mistake with regard to money. Today there are three commonly recognized functions of money:

The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange; a unit of account; a store of value
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money

To say something on this topic: it seems this discussion will be idle until we get closer to GA and can observe how the system behaves and what provides incentives to its participants.

Gold is related to the topic(albeit slightly indirect), as safecoin and gold are alternatives to the current fiat system. Gold may be an indicator for the potential value of cryptocurrencies. And FYI many many topics on maidsafe have been way offtopic compared to what i have posted and I am ok with this as long as its productive conversation and somewhat related. If you want to continue this, then make a new topic as this is unrelated(meta).

Any ideas what is causing the volume increase on masterexchange? :slight_smile:

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Sector rotation. Pension funds are moving in from bitcoin.

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