The Maidsafe Project is Going in the Wrong Direction

Personally I disagree that anything needs to change and I very much doubt Troon Towers would be swayed by your points.

This is not a race or competition. VHS and betamax etc is comparing like with like. This isn’t ‘better’ tech, it is totally different tech that achieves different things in a different way. If SAFE were another blockchain then I’d agree with you, but it is so utterly different to every other project as to not be in a race with any of them imo.

SAFE hasn’t needed marketing and it doesn’t need investors to succeed. It doesn’t matter what the market cap is pre launch. Speculation is just that. Only utility actually matters. Eth is still minimum 2 years away from scaling with sharding, so SAFE will be getting active users and utility long before Eth DApps are ready for the mainstream. And as I said, SAFE offers something very different to the rest of them… security, privacy and freedom, all in one place and all from day 1. No blockchain required.

I’d love to imagine myself as the oil or gas in the engine, that would make me feel very good about holding. Sadly I don’t think that’s true. None of the hype or market cap makes its way to maidsafe directly. They aren’t selling a store of value that desperately needs network effect. They are creating something unique. Us selling or holding makes very little difference to them and developers have only just been able to start building their Apps, so there has been no point in trying to attract more of them before now. Marketing would have been a crazy way to prioritise resources imo. All the work necessarily needed to be done as ‘core’.since there are a lot of linked cogs in the machine.

Ethereum went straight for the jugular with smart contracts and they’re working backwards to scale. Maidsafe have done all the hard work first and will build out the community and developer base when the network is ready for them to actually use it.

I absolutely don’t think that Eth’s market cap relative to maidsafe’s somehow means SAFE will be made redundant before it gets it shot. More likely Eth will be made redundant before it finds a way to scale ;).

We are very close to the time when marketing becomes useful and important, but it would have been madness to draw attention before it was ready and spend resources they needed to get it ready.

And a little NB… One of the main reasons VHS beat Betamax was because the porn industry went for VHS. Perhaps we will find the same thing and the stuff human beings actually want will be what drives real-world utility… SAFEnet freedom would be a very powerful thing.

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Personally I disagree that anything needs to change and I very much doubt Troon Towers would be swayed by your points.

my post was directed at them and not you actually. They are intelligent enough to know that if you
just listen to those that agree with you, you will not gain any new insights. Especially, when those
insights are crafted in a constructive manner.

This is not a race or competition. VHS and betamax etc is comparing like with like. This isn’t ‘better’ tech, it is totally different tech that achieves different things in a different way. If SAFE were another blockchain then I’d agree with you, but it is so utterly different to every other project as to not be in a race with any of them imo.

SAFE doesn’t need marketing and it doesn’t need investors. It doesn’t matter what the market cap is pre launch. Speculation is just that. Only utility actually matters. Eth is still minimum 2 years away from scaling with sharding, so SAFE will be getting active users and utility long before Eth DApps are ready for the mainstream. And as I said, SAFE offers something very different to the rest of them… security, privacy and freedom, all in one place and all from day 1. No blockchain required.

I’d love to imagine myself as the oil or gas in the engine, that would make me feel very good about holding. Sadly I don’t think that’s true. None of the hype or market cap makes its way to maidsafe directly. They aren’t selling a store of value that desperately needs network effect. They are creating something unique. Us selling or holding makes very little difference to them and developers have only just been able to start building their Apps, so there has been no point in trying to attract more of them before now. Marketing would have been a crazy way to prioritise resources imo. All the work necessarily needed to be done as ‘core’.since there are a lot of linked cogs in the machine.

Ethereum went straight for the jugular with smart contracts and they’re working backwards to scale. Maidsafe have done all the hard work first and will build out the community and developer base when the network is ready for them to actually use it.

I absolutely don’t think that Eth’s market cap relative to maidsafe’s somehow means SAFE will be made redundant before it gets it shot. More likely Eth will be made redundant before it finds a way to scale ;).

you have constructed a whole set of debates you want to have…but I will pass. Got to use time better

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I’d suggest PM’ing them if you don’t want responses from the community. This is a public forum and most people who ask questions are interested in the arguments for and against. Perhaps you should take some of your own advice and listen to disagreement?

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I’d suggest PM’ing them if you don’t want responses from the community. This is a public forum and most people who ask questions are interested in the arguments for and against. Perhaps you should take some of your own advice and listen to disagreement?

I did not ask a question, I made a statement. And, i have spent time debating that statement.
Although, I disagree with @happybeing, our disagreement was cordial and his response tells me
he understands the point been made.

Yes, I could have sent a private message to troon. But my statement gives voice to a segment
of the maidsafe community that have the same concerns. Too many a time, I have seen people
browbeaten in this forum for having the temerity to raise this issue.

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Guys if we are done fighting here can we all buy some Maidsafe please. Market is down again. :smiley:

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Not sure how disagreeing is browbeating? I was perfectly civil,. I just had the temerity to disagree with you. Shame on me, I should have just stayed quiet because you clearly know best.

/rollzeyes and moves on

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100% with Sam, when all the over cryptos fall apart MAID WILL BE READY!

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The key word being “when”

This is not really the case though. VHS could play tapes that were over 90 mins so could fit a movie, betamax was a better tech for studios granted (but could not fit a wole movie on a tape), but vhs was aimed square at home use. (would be like Elon Musk using space X rockets as a competition for cars, it could move people around and can be considered “better tech”, but would not be wise in a market to use a space ship to do that) Home use was a bigger market and betamax heads were not for that market. The best tech may not always win, but it generally does if it’s there, aka open source and available with contributors working on it. Over-Engineering is a killer though and that is carefully considered by us at all steps.

I welcome your opinions as I do everyone else’s, there’s a myriad of them out there. I never seen the article you mention posting though, unless you mean the post. If so I have read that.

In terms of the core components, we are building what can be seen as a minimum viable product in the release of SAFE. It’s just that release requires a great many moving parts and if any are missing then it will not work at all. The components we build are to have developers test the core works and can do what they need to build apps, I don’t think we can do less than that, otherwise we risk saying “there that looks good and should work, go crazy and I hope we were right in what we provided”. So we need to travel slightly down the apps route and provide demos to get folk started. I am not aware of any software platform that does not have some form of demo, even rust libraries to get classified as “whole” have example, documentation and more. you need to do at least some of that to show folk how to use what you build I feel.

So anyway we read and listen, but work hard with what we have while trying to grow. Marketing and the rest is so subjective and done well can be amazing, but done early can be over-promising and under-delivering, so imagine how many critics that would bring and more such options we would have to read and listen to :wink: We went close to that route previously, it’s not nice and if you have compassion it hurts too much, so our current route is to do our best and when appropriate shout very very loud.

I hope that helps, answers some of your questions.

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hello david,thanks for your response…

I welcome your opinions as I do everyone else’s, there’s a myriad of them out there. I never seen the article you mention posting though, unless you mean the post. If so I have read that.

I meant the post, when swarm was just an idea…

In terms of the core components, we are building what can be seen as a minimum viable product in the release of SAFE. It’s just that release requires a great many moving parts and if any are missing then it will not work at all. The components we build are to have developers test the core works and can do what they need to build apps, I don’t think we can do less than that, otherwise we risk saying “there that looks good and should work, go crazy and I hope we were right in what we provided”. So we need to travel slightly down the apps route and provide demos to get folk started. I am not aware of any software platform that does not have some form of demo, even rust libraries to get classified as “whole” have example, documentation and more. you need to do at least some of that to show folk how to use what you build I feel.

my biggest fear as time went on after the ICO was that you were going to run out of money because
the ICO didn’t really raise $5.6. I was relived that you were able to raise another round through formal crowdfunding.

The fresh funds does give you more time, irrespective of what people like me think about the timing of market entry. It seems to me that why you define core so broadly, is the primary market which
Maidsafe is targeting to GENERATE REVENUE and return to your shareholders. As, I understand
it, organisations will pay a license fee to use the Safenetwork. So, you need to offer an amazon and
azure type (polished) product at launch time.

however, the Maidsafe technology is not amazon or azure, it is more like building an internet like infrastructure which will be controlled and licensed by one organisation. That is why this thing is taking this long. Having seen the way coin economics works, i would have suggested preminning some
safecoin, forget the licensing model and release a “DIFFERENT” MVP that can be built as
the development community grows.You lose some control in return for safecoin. Hobbyist and start-ups
can tolerate lack of manuals, demos and technical support, if they are using great tech without any licensing fees. They can also tolerate a reduced feature set.

Lets use ethereum as an example here. When the MVP was launched, it was not really
targeted at corporates. It has gone through many iterations since launch and today has a
very big enterprise alliance group. Again, it took nearly, 13 months to see any serious
start-up project on the platform. Everybody was experimenting and the devs where
building the next iteration.

My sense is that this market segment the team is spending this amount of time
trying to deliver a polished product at launch will not use the platform until it has been
validated by the hobbyist and start-up market segments.

there it is. my 2 MAID worth…

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Hi agamemnon, could you please tell me more about this? Afaik there was raised around 8 mil.$ in the Safecoin presale in 2014. The second crowdfunding you mean selling MaidSafe shares?

there are various headline figures for the ICO but the ACTUAL dollar value received by maidsafe
was much lower for two reasons.

(a) there was a significant contribution of MASTERCOIN for MAID coins…mastercoin (now omni)
wasn’t really worth as much as bitcoin
(b) the price of bitcoin crashed right after the ICO

As I understand it, the licence fee is applied only when the code is made proprietary. If the GPL is preserved, its free for use.

No, the license fee is 1% of any revenue you generate, if your business runs on the
safenetwork. Do a google search or read the terms & conditions. I think this has also
been discussed in several threads on this forum

I think you are not right… after the launch, MaidSafe will have almost non control on Safenet.

the licensing framework gives maidsafe a claim over 1% of revenue generated on the network
and I believe they will build some sort of KILL switch to enforce that claim. I do not know the
exact implementation of this, but if you are asking somebody in nepal to pay you a license fee,
it makes sense to build in a mechanism to disable that content if the fee is not paid.

Please be patient, I think we are just on the right track!

this is not a question of been patient or impatient. Like everyone else, I want MAIDSAFE
to reach that potential we keep telling people about. This has been a constructive
discussion in my view. It is well worth the time, i have invested in it.

come to think of it, given david’s views on freedom of information and the implication that
governments can force maidsafe to remove content they do not like with the kill switch, I
am inclined to conclude that there is no kill switch. So, the maidsafe market universe for the
1% license fee will be in countries with decent legal systems.

@lubinew you are correct - there is no fee for running a business using SAFEnetwork and no transaction fees even for business using Safecoin for payment processing. I’m surprised at this lack of understanding. Here is my understanding…

Fees only apply to businesses under specific circumstances which are easy to avoid if you don’t want to use a license/didn’t want to pay fees. So it’s almost always a choice based on business model.

In short, open is generally free, closed is not.

From memory, I think the boundary for a business arises when you link your code directly with the MaidSafe libraries. If you don’t GPL such code, you must obtain a license and that means fees. But even then, you would avoid fees if you GPL your code. So it is very flexible, and the aim is to keep the network open.

To answer the question how will MaidSafe make money, one of the ways is by building apps and earning developer rewards from the network just like other developers. Others are in helping businesses build things on SAFEnetwork. Others would be deploying MaidSafe technology in bespoke forms within business etc.

I don’t know what MaidSafe expect to generate from non-GPL’d applications, but my guess is not that much, because for many the other options will be more attractive.

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From memory, I think the boundary for a business arises when you link your code directly with the MaidSafe libraries. If you don’t GPL such code, you must obtain a license and that means fees. But even then, you would avoid fees if you GPL your code. So it is very flexible, and the aim is to keep the network open.

thank you for that clarification. But at some point, you are always going to use one maidsafe library
or the other for internal processes. it is doubtful that most organisations, would want to GPL their
internal code because it incorporates a maidsafe library…

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It is still possible to build applications without linking to the libraries, so the option is there for what I expect will be a large majority of business uses.

Previously avoiding a license meant going via the Launcher. Today the equivalent is I believe using the safe_nodejs API (or DOM API). In which case only code written to use the Rust libraries directly (rather than the API) would face the need to be GPL in order to avoid the need for a license.

As I said, it is flexible, encourages open code, and I expect for most business uses licensing will not be needed. The only situations where it is likely to be needed are, I think, where a business wants to adapt or extend MaidSafe technology into an application, service or product that they can’t build using the API, and want to remain closed source.

So for relatively specialised business uses there is the option of paying fees because that’s either the only way to build something, or there are other reasons that make the fee worthwhile.

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Are you basing your price estimates on the market value of Maid to Bitcoin or something else

As @happybeing indicates linking is a specific term and does not mean “using”. So if you build a “new” SAFE network or advanced client app that does more than than the API allows then you would “link” some of our libs into a new API. This is then derivative works.

If you just use the supplied API, then we don’t care what you build, but we would like to to be good things for good people :wink:

Linking is sort of like this:

  1. You compile code into blobs we call libraries
  2. You link those libraries into a larger library that encompasses those from 1.
  3. You have a “new” library with different features from the public API’s we have

The linking process is a term that means the linker (sort of like a compiler) takes all the libs and “joins” them together and creates a new binary.

Hth

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As I understand it from a conversation with an Evolutionary Biologist recently the Libraries are “structural hierarchical fractals” within a cultural context eg Health…the binary being “a state of balance between continuing procceses” learning continuously…to maximise the linkage benefits …

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Where do I sign up and what code/system am I using? I am building an app.

Maybe others can help here. I haven’t even looked at building an APP yet to be honest