Tesla's $3500 grid cutter


The thread will go better if people watch the full video first, the video gets better and better http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall


“After Tesla unveiled its two new battery storage products in May, one for homeowners and the other for utilities – the response was electric. Within a week, Tesla sold a year’s worth of batteries, with orders for 38,000 of its Powerwall residential batteries and 2,500 for its Powerpack, the utility-scale batteries.”

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I think this is one of the greatest companies ever. Elon has way more vision that Steve Jobs had and does the most exiting things like creating a space company next to his car business :-). I’m also a little owner of Tesla, owning some stocks. This company has a market cap of “only” 30.65 Billion. I think in 10 years we laugh about that. Especially because what you’ve posted about their energy business. It’s not just a car company.

On the other hand, some others are joining their space as well:

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I agree. He is actually someone who is doing something about the world’s problems. Musk literally said out loud to a crowd at a party on camera “F@#@# Oil.” That takes vision and courage. He had a glass of wine in his hand at the time but I don’t think it was the wine talking. Too FF maybe possibly add Google and Apple? They do not seem to be interested in self driving ICE or hybrids from what I can tell.

Climate denial may be the greatest stupidity of the last thousand years just based on risk-cost weighting. If there were even a 10% chance that it were real we should still kill the so-called fossil fuel industry over it outright. Even if there were a 0 percent chance we should be getting rid of the fossil fuel fortunes just because like nothing else in this world they bring us closer to nuclear war and represent total inequity and injustice.

Its only our stupid delusion that money should come first or should be privileged even before people that allows us to even remotely put up with petrol power, even in the US where the US has been in some ways greatly advantaged by it. We should have learned our lesson after the 1970 oil embargo. The money first delusion has been programmatic, a function of sponsored media and it amounts to a religion, a bad one even as religions go. We went from humanities programs which work to make people more human and defuse reckless power to the worshipful glorification of power in the so-called business schools. The lesson some drew from the outcome of the cold war was evidently that fraud is the way to success.

We should never forget that Romney called Tesla a loser. What what his program? It was WWIII and continued global systematic fraud i.e., austerity. In my opinion whatever reality is/was behind ISIS and Al-Qaeda its a function of his type of mentality and the people who hold it. What do they teach in these business schools? A money first approach makes you a loser. Look at the US auto industry vs the Japanese. They beat us on our own soil with our own people. You can never win with that coke addicted attitude in place of actual education and awareness. Your best efforts fail when your ultimate value is the shakedown. Its not sustainable.

And yet Tesla is a group of immigrants (by its visionary make up) forming an upstart company in the US initially with some big help from Toyota, and it would have likely been destroyed if Romney/GOP would have won the election. In the last 50 years no group has worked harder to undermine American lives than the GOP both intentionally and unintentionally. In the last 25 years its completely lost its mind. The GOP and it insane mentality are by far the greatest threat the world faces and has been at least since 2000.

I agree. The company’s a joke.

They lose $4K on each car they sell, Tesla is grotesquely overvalued, makes products for a minority of the rich and survives largely due to the redistributionist largess of the US and Californian “state capitalists” that take from the poor and give to Musk & his shareholders.

It’s one of most shameful US enterprises today. The fact that it is celebrated by those who subsidize its products - is completely expected (as usual, the masses are led to believe they’re doing something useful for the environment or something). In the meantime these ludicrous batteries are also a dud, even the company itself said it doesn’t make economic sense to buy them (but of course Warren had to conveniently skip that detail when explaining the revolutionary nature of the product).

In 10 years, residential battery storage systems will be as common as stoves and refrigerators. No home will be without one. SolarCity’s Bass suggests that’s when the Tesla Powerwall will begin to make economic sense.
Read more at http://www.teslarati.com/bloomberg-says-tesla-powerwall-doesnt-make-sense/

Even the anti-coal crusaders at Bloomberg admit the product is economically meaningless.

“It’s a luxury good—really cool to have—but I don’t see an economic argument,” said Brian Warshay, an energy and smart technologies analyst with Bloomberg New Energy Finance. Bloomberg suggests you could get the same back up capability from a $3,700 generator available at Home Depot.

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@janitor, first of all welcome back!

That wasn’t really a problem for Amazon, growing their sales year after year without making a dime on it. As you can see on the link I added, they still had a loss last quarter of 188 miljn. Amazon is famous for not making (a lot) profit over the years, but look at their marketcap of 245 bln. According to your reply that wasn’t possible. But it still happened.

They indeed loose money these days, Elon even told investors it can take up to 5 years before they’ll become profitable. But look at their fundamentals. If they keep growing 50% a year (what they’ve pointed out, although last 5 year they’ve grown sales 90% annually) we’re at 28 billion in income each year. That’s quite close to their market cap these days. You think price of the stock won’t go up?

Their powerwall is not only popular with consumers at home, it’s especially poplar for companies for storage and peak-shaving. You think these companies place orders while they don’t make any profit on it? Well think again, companies only buy storage like this when they make money on it, otherwise they won’t. This new category is so popular, Tesla did about 800 miljn. in sales in 1 day. That’s right, sold out in 1 day. The car market is 100 mljn. new cars a year. And I bet that Tesla will be at least at 1% of that in 2020. Selling 1 miljn. cars a year. And that they do make profit on it.

I have stocks of companies that do make profit and that have little to no debts at all. But both Tesla and Solarcity are in my portfolio as well.

Bloomberg suggests you could get the same back up capability from a $3,700 generator available at Home Depot.

Yeah, let’s put a noisy generator in your garden which runs on diesel fuel, hasn’t any capability to store electricity, which doesn’t help you with any peak shaving. That’s apples and pears. Comparing a storage device to a production device. Glad I did my homework while being in tech school.

Ohw, and by the way. The storage in those batteries is growing at a rate of 8% to 9% per year for a lot of years now. That’s why the battery pack in a Model S is 40% smaller than it was in a Roadster. This trend is going for years and years now. Within about 7 years, you’ll store the same amount of energy on a battery pack that’s half the size and half the prize. That’s why Tesla is building their gigafactory, because they need all the batteries they can when their model 3 will be sold at the average price of about 30k. We’ll see a tipping point where it becomes ridiculous to buy a gasoline car. Just because of the economics of it.

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Wait till Tesla is using stuff like Storedot’s qdot batteries with faster than gas up recharge. Anyone see the the Tesla battery exchanger system that can swap the car’s batteries in half the time it would take to fuel up? Amazing and deployed in LA. At the very least if you needed to change a pack a dealer could do it in minutes. Imagine model 3s driving down the road providing lifi and wireless mesh nodes- a kind of decentralized back channel backbone.

I guess the exchanger hasn’t been as popular because people don’t think of their batteries as fungible and because its not a free charge up at the super charger. Very interesting how that system must manage the trade offs of exchanging batteries at different points in their life cycle.

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Own your house and deed it to your kids and commit them to the same. Disconnect from the electric and gas grids. Drive a roof top solar powered vehicle. Ignore sponsored media and use decentralized secure mesh powered communications thereby cutting the cable and telecom bill… Dont buy stuff you don’t need. If you invest forget about return and only buy the most tangible assets. Get rid of all your debt and dont use credit. Grow your own food and plant permaculture. Work for other people as little as possible and minimize work in general. Get well water rights or a powered aquafoil. Move out of the city.

In short if we work together we can begin to cut the cord on their power and drown it in the bath tub. We can cut the cords on centralized transport, food, energy, food and debt. This returns the power to us.

Hi there!

I love it when companies turn into loss leaders, it’s better for us consumers, but don’t forget that Bezos (as far as I know) mostly mistreated AMZN shareholders, whereas Musk is plundering the taxpayer under the protection and threats of Uncle Sam. And take a look at all the other Musk’s projects/companies - almost all “thrive” due to government contracts financed the same way. That is really disgusting.

I don’t think the cars are crap, I am just saying he’s a dangerous man and the car company is hyped for no reason (you do know where the electricity comes, right?).

Overall, it would really be nice & helpful if the company went bust.

And on the topic of cash burn, just a few days later: “We diluted some folks”


Yup, it’s mostly coal and nuclear here in the EU. But even if there would never be any clean energy this would still be better. These electrics take back energy when they break. They also need less new engine parts over the years due to less rotating parts.

Was already priced in, you could have see that one coming. He’s actually putting his money where his mouth is. He buys in himself and doesn’t go the the government for extra money. He comes to me and the other investors. And he’s welcome.

And take a look at all the other Musk’s projects/companies - almost all “thrive” due to government contracts financed the same way. That is really disgusting.

Boeing and Lockheed were (and are) getting loads of money by the government and through NASA. Elon decided to jump in the scene of building rockets and he’s beating them with both price an innovation. The others became addicted to the easy money and got lazy. He’s really kicking ass in that area.

And what about incentives for burning coal etc. You think these companies aren’t getting any of your money? They’re great in disguising it.

Here’s Elon himself taking some of your points.

“U.S. government says it lost $11.2 billion on GM bailout” Woow, that’s a lot of Tesla’s :wink:

To understand why, one must look closely at the terms of the deal. A casual reader of stories about the Gigafactory might assume that the $1.3 billion number in the headlines means that the state wrote Tesla a huge check for that amount. In fact, Tesla has received no money from the state at all.

@janitor, these are the best cars on the planet. So no, it wouldn’t be helpful if they went bust.
Also, Bezos didn’t mistreat shareholders. The treatment they got under Amazon should be a ceiling. That’s what a company that tries to compete instead of steal looks like.

Musk’s Solar Ponzi City down 20+ percent today. Someone recently said solar more competitive than fossil fuels. Therefore we can conclude that The Green Robber Baron is a clueless dude who can make money only if the government stashes it into his pocket.


I love that Jim Chanos made money shorting that scummy company.

Tesla isn’t doing much better - the failure is slowly manifesting itself for what it is.
By end of November, it’ll sink below $200.

Solar is not to blame [here][1]: First Solar is doing great today.

People are afraid that Solarcity’s negative cash flow will become to big. Even if I look at the stock at Gurufocus all seems negative. Except for 1 thing, and that’s the growth of sales. They’ve grown in 5 years from 30 million tot 300 million. That’s why I’m in, it’s potential to become a great stock in 5 years. And the fact that holy Musk is the owner even gives them more credit. He’s one of the greatest entrepreneurs around. No matter if you look at Zip2, the game he sold before he was 15 or the fact that he founded Paypal and runs both SpaceX and Tesla. This guy is brilliant. Might be a bumpy ride but I don’t care. He shows great growth in all his companies. And please take a look at how much your government is paying to the fossil companies. You would be surprised.

[1]: http://finviz.com/quote.ashx?t=FSLR&ty=c&ta=1&p=d

Elon Musk is my personal hero.


That’s really sad. He’s one of biggest statist leeches on the West Coast and a willing helper to the thieving psychopaths such as Obama, Gore, and Brown.

But it’s all good, without people like him the current system might last even longer…

The latest hilarious example of his “God’s work” can be found in article below: as the Ponzi scheme based on taking money from taxpayers and pouring it down the pockets of these green bandits is drawing to and end, the “new” business model of competitive renewable energy is breaking down. We’re it not for the government sponsored theft, this outstanding businessman’s various ventures would all be titsup by now. Hero!


Just did another buy into my solar portfolio. This company uses the same strategy as Solarcity. No need to invest a few thousand dollars in your own panels. They’ll just put them up, take care of the finance and from the first month you’ll start saving between 10% and 30% on your bill.

Their last quarter growth of sales was 171,10% compared to the same quarter a year ago. That’s what I call growth :slight_smile: of course @janitor will argue that his tax dollars are making this happen, but hey, I’m in Europe. I just buy the stock ;-). They’re minus 50% from their IPO. Think it’s a great investment for the coming years.

It’s free for all, if you don’t steal other people’s money, someone else will!

The approach is uneconomic and therefore in the long run doomed, just like a bunch of solar companies in Spain failed in 2011 when the government ran out of other people’s money, the same will happen EU wide once the next wave of crisis catches up with the thieves at the ECB and EU.

The big difference is that we’are seeing grid-parity in a lot of places. Quite different from all the hype we saw some years ago:

As of 2011, the price of PV modules has fallen by 60% since the summer of 2008, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance estimates, putting solar power for the first time on a competitive footing with the retail price of electricity in a number of sunny countries; an alternative and consistent price decline figure of 75% from 2007 to 2012 has also been published

and that trend keeps going:

These panels are becoming so cheap that the governments can easily take subsidies out. It won’t hurt these companies any longer.

We’ll see. I have zero trust in both the media and the government.

I get the government part, but what has the media to do with this??