I hope this was an idea for user selected “temp” class uploads.
To have a recurring cost would be unneeded. If they want it past the temp class timeframe then its really permanent.
To have a recurring cost adds a lot of code to the core and requires a constant checking of billions pieces of data to see if rent should be paid. Plus the attack surface is increased because of the increased code and complexity.
And I still contend according to all I’ve explained above that there will be no need for deletions past the initial stages of the network. Storage is going to explode greater than the 10x in 5 years and bandwidth has been increasing at over 2 times per year and this is supported by the current trends, current research and current industry indications for decade(s)
Well no people may not be able to afford full prices upfront even, and they might want to only have their data for an unbeknownst period of time to them, they don’t know how long they will need it, it could be something they need to host for 3 months for an upcoming event.
And it may be data that they may only value for a period of time. They may really liked a photo then after ten years be like, nah, i would rather just save it on my USB offline and get some safecoins etc. Who knows!
I don’t think i have time for trolling, i’d much rather be doing something else trust me And what do you mean my proposals were considered? Did you read how i simply said this can be a potential problem and I’m simply bringing this up for the community to think of ideas together?
Do people hold a negative view just because I’m bringing up potencial problems? So far my arguments haven’t been all defeated, the points I’m making are still valid. This pay once and service forever model is a brand new model and NEVER done in history, and hence questioning the sustainability of it is what everyone should be doing actually, not pointing fingers at people doing that and call them trolls. If you don’t leave your models open to discussions to the entire community, how can you improve?
What do you think the community SHOULD be doing instead @lubinew? Just say Safenetwork is the best thing out there and buy maidsafetokens and no one sells so everyone will be rich?
Or critically thinking and helping improve the network and the technology?
Well some may be, just the one where i said new data stored will still be a limiting factor to the networks growth. And the network will eventually die off with no new data. @neo said no new data mean no one using the network therefore it should die anyway, which i said is untrue, there could well be people just want to maintain access to their old data.
Also philosophically it is kinda strange for you to pay once and get benefit from other people’s payment, it’s like a ponzi not for money but for new data(which costs money in the form of safecoins). It needs NEW data stored constantly feeding it to help the old data survive. Yes, you can have people who farm even if they lose money, but never the less, if most for-profit farmers quit, it’ll significantly effect everyone’s data. It’s actually a serious issue that shouldn’t be overlooked, as the consequences of doing so is everyone losing their data on the network, or at least some people losing their data.
Although people support the products they use. For instance those that use dropbox for their files are actually uploading files to it.
Also the quote was selective. The quote I was making is almost no new data AND was not instant dying, but dying off over time. And in the sense that human nature is such that if people are not storing data on a storage system then they are not going to use that storage system. WHY - because they are storing their data elsewhere and no longer using SAFE. They also will most likely move any previously uploaded data to their new preferred storage system so they don’t have to keep swapping between the two when wanting to retrieve their data.
And the exceptions to the normal situation only verifies the general rule of human nature.
Exactly. Also if we make things complex then people will ignore it.
Renting data storage is a lot more complex than just saying “pay to upload it and its there, no more to pay”
And if we say OH you have to pay for downloading data, or visiting web sites because its bandwidth usage and you have to pay to upload data and then you have to make sure you pay the rental for each chunk. Then considering each chunk will have different timestamps so the rental payment has to be done for each chunk at its exiry time. That is such a complex system that people will say “stuff it” I’ll just use dropbox and pay the monthly fee, even if its many times the cost.
It is not a ponzi and you will earn little respect here by trying to suggest it is. For clarity, there is no unsustainable transfer of wealth from new to old users.
Instead, it is much closer to how state pensions are funded; they take the tax of today to pay the pensioners of today. If no one worked (created new data) then pensioners would starve (network would decay). However, there is always a steady stream of new borns growing up and then earning and paying taxes, which keeps the pensioners sheltered and fed.
Safe net has the added bonus that old data becomes less of a burden over time, to such an extent that decade old data is inconsequential.
Its pay once. No returns no profit, no nothing. The network can continue without further uploads if people are willing to run nodes with smaller farming rewards since the coins are being created without any being returned.
This is just going in circles and circles
This can be over many years since the network can still pay rewards (reducing) for a couple of decades
I received a pre paid account with my phone years ago. I still have the account and don’t pay a penny for it. It is brimmed with backups if photos and videos too. In short, I just paid once and have storage for as long as Dropbox allows it.
Um… No… There are profits in ponzi. Some people make good money with it. And the coin supply is limited my friend… Anyway, Look, Not the point. I think we should all try to think from the others perspective. Because I feel like you’re not even trying to understand this issue. Why don’t we do this, let’s switch positions, everyone who have been arguing against me try to come up with a few arguments for potential problems with the current model. While I and those who agree there may be a potential problem try to think of some ways of why the problem may not be a problem after all.
I’ll start first, cos I have been thinking actually about the future if it stays as is :
Website owners can make money from other sources. Like for example you can have a Google or Facebook on the safenetwork making money with advertising. They(especially Facebook) will pay for people to share a status on the safenetwork.(because let’s face it, honestly no one will pay to share a status on social media)
App developers such as game developers can also make money and pay for all the uploads to safenetwork for its users. 1 and 2 basically says that revenue can be from other sources such as advertising and sales rather than simply people wanting to store their data. Simply their usage of the network produces profits which then go back to helping and encouraging people to upload more data more subsidising all their cost.
There will be some people to will pay no matter what the cost is to use the network for its features such as not being censored or shut down.
People would use safe coin as store of value also which means value of it will go up, exciting more farmers to get on it even if they may make very little profits, break even, or loss during some months. If they believe that in the future safe coin will go up in value they would want to earn and hold it anyway.
Something that may not be imagined would significantly help the network and make much more data being stored on it. This is like ethereum, most of its value is due to the Ico craze but no one predicted(or at least definitely not majority of people) that it’ll raise to $300 this quickly and icos will go this crazy raising $200 million per round!
Anyway. I challenge you guys to also come up with some arguments for the opposing side. So you can better understand it too.
But with that said I also have another proposal. What if we gave an option when people store. One is they choose to pay 100% to store the data forever. Another one, is they pay 1% of the value they’d otherwise pay to store it, it can be forever as well, however, they pay that amount recurring monthly. As soon as payments stop, data gets deleted.
How many people do you think will choose the latter? I think quite a few! As they can probably leave their computer on continuously to make let’s say 10 safe coins per month, but that’s only enough to store let’s say 10GB. But they wanna store 100GB, so if they choose that option of paying monthly, which works perfectly for them, as they’ll be able to store 100 times as much data and for free too since they will be able to make the safe coins back every month, by contributing to the network every month. I think this way will also get more contributors to the network as people will try to look to store their data for free on the network. And those of you that want a data stored on their permanently won’t be affected. Both are available. Everyone is happy! (oh and keep in mind those who are paying recurring can upgrade any time but their previous payments won’t count towards the payment, that way, we also will get more coins returned to the network in general)
Well exact costs can be worked out later but that’s just a suggestion. Also what do you mean by erase work? there isn’t really much erase work…
Also, the uploader of the data will not only pay for storage but pay for bandwidth to upload the data, surely, if that’s an attack vector all dropbox and google drive would be out of business… i’m sure there’s many people wanting to attack them…
Even if the other option is also available? Remember it could be 5% or 10% of the cost, people will still be happy to choose that than paying 10-20 times more upfront. And it’s a win win for both cases. So yeah
Nothing in points 1 to 5 leads to the leap of paying for bandwidth or paying rental.
Put simply paying for bandwidth and paying rental will reduce the number of people using SAFE let alone storing on SAFE.
No and no again because of the complexity. Pure and simple the complexity will not help and at best be a zero sum benefit in numbers storing. I am talking of the complexity for people to use here.
But now if you look at the complexity for the network to continually scan for chunks that need rental paid and delete those chunks at the expiry time means the network is spending a lot on compute and disk work across every farmers machine, not to mention multiply the bandwidth needed to coordinate and reach consensus for agreing each and every chunk does or does not need deleting.
Then the human complexity to remember to pay for each chunk when it comes due. So if I store a movie and it takes 8 hours to upload then I have to one day sit and authorise rental payments for 8 hours. And do this every month, and just for one movie. Even if you could make an APP to sit for those 8 hours doing the payments (if you trust the APP) then your machine is on for an extra 8 hours once a month. Then multiply this for each movie you have ever uploaded. Well here is a radical idea, why not farm for those extra hours and just pay the full amount up front. Simpler code less attack surface and easy to understand in one package.
And like safecoin, it will take a very very long time for this final result to occur.
I think first of all you should try to think of a few arguments from the other point of view so you can understand better.
Second
Seriously??? Even when they have the option to choose? If they’ve chosen to have it monthly then you’re saying oh but it’s still too complex for them because they’ve just chose it and happy to have it that way. It may be complex to you but those who chose it may have different views. It’s not complex to use at all mate and it solves a significant potential issue. Also, you can say downloading the browser and using the safe:// protocol is also complex. Sending safe coins is also complex. You can pick out bad bits and throw every possible argument against any new proposal in order to defend the current state of the network and say it’s perfect, which is exactly what you’ve been doing for the past 260 posts. Not helpful at all. You don’t even think of any possibility of it 1. Not working as well as expected and 2.nor do you seem to believe there are ways to make it better. Because every single proposal made by me or anyone to improve the network so far has been rigorously defended by you. For what? So you think the current state is perfect and it never needs to be improved? It’s almost like some religious people protecting their religion saying it’s the only true thing and do not accept anything else besides their belief being true.
Which is why i suggested that you try to understand it from another perspective, because when you get into a Zen mode of defending everything and thinking the current model is perfect, you have closed your mind and no longer can the model improve. If the development team are like you then the network will never be able to improve… They will just reject ANY new proposal and find any reasons to defend their current model no matter how good the new proposal is or can potentially be if they actually thought about it and build new ideas on top of any new proposals. Which you also have not done for the past 260 posts… Simply been defending the current model. Instead of doing that why don’t you at least TRY to build on top of new proposals or give suggestions with your knowledge and also try to understand things from the other perspective
And what do you mean my proposals were considered? Did you read how i simply said this can be a potential problem and I’m simply bringing this up for the community to think of ideas together?