Safenet progress questions

Autonomi Network Token
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I see apoligists as @FollowTheCycles noted. I see David’s loyal followers always at the ready with sword in hand.

Simplistic characterisations are signs of propaganda and a tool of demigods.

Criticism is fine, but mostly what we see is opinion, in this thread opinion that rehashed an old well worn topic without answering the points made against timelines in the past. It was just restated that it was the opinion of one person that timelines with dates were not just applicable, but essential. They did not claim any real world experience to back up this opinion. So what was that worth?

It’s like someone who can’t accept they lost the argument, waits for some time, and raises it again without saying anything new. If this wasn’t a public forum, we could just ignore that, but it isn’t, so the points have to be answered again, and again because many people reading will then be ill informed and tend to accept the unanswered point as valid. Giving MaidSafe and the project a bad name.

Being against that is not being apologist, it is about wanting the facts and arguments presented so they can be properly evaluated

It is fine to disagree, but pointless, wasteful and ultimately amounts to trolling if someone returns again and again without anything new to add.

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Nothing in this thread or others relating to timelines have given Maidsafe a bad name. If Maidsafe has a bad name its because of Maidsafe. You cannot defend the history of broken promises, poor communication, failed strategies, perceived or otherwise. You expect people to buy what you are selling without question or concern. Much of this consternation is a result of expectations of ROI. There are not people complaining of delays because they they need the safenet to watch porn or access darknet or buy cocaine. These are shareholders that want and feel they deserve a say in whats going on. Timelines have “proven” to be a disaster for Maidsafe and its investors because they were once used.

What about a company that, in the past, returned again and again and offered false hope? Has that been fully addressed? Does it continue?

I see you picked only one little part of my post. What your thoughts on getting a roadmap?

FTR Im not advocating for timelines but lack of a reliable roadmap is troubling.

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Firstly, the reason MaidSafe won’t get a bad name from this thread is because the opinion has been responded to, again, by people who have followed this project for a long time and have the understanding of development, business, and life to have formed a different opinion, and argue it convincingly. Just my opinion :wink:

You speculate that the motives here are in line with what I assume are your own (concerned investors) which may or may not be true, but the are many other possible reasons. But by all means assume the ones you think strengthen the force of your opinion, it didn’t.

You seem to have formed a very negative opinion of MaidSafe. It’s nice for you to be honest about this at last. Again, as someone with decades of relevant experience, like @neo, I have a different opinion on this.

I get that you still support the project, so props for you for being able to hold that contradiction. Few can do that, and we see the result when someone flips from supportive and positive, to negative.

I disagree with your characterisation of past events, all of which I’ve been a part of.

My observation is that it’s in the interests of everyone who supports the goals, or who is here as an investor (but not speculators) to do whatever they can to help make the project a success.

To me this does not mean berating criticism, because criticism is helpful. Criticism in the sense of reasoned argument, attempting to address failings or identified shortcomings are therefore welcome - particularly when supported by constructive action and backed up relevant life experience and skills that are put to practical use.

This was something different, that we see from time to time, and is not helpful, is not supporting the goals of the project, and won’t help people maximize their ROI.

First question for any critic to ask themselves is: how can I be if practical help beyond criticising others?

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A big life lesson for me was when my boss, co-founder of the startup I was working for said this.

There are two kinds of people, the ones who bring me problems, and those who bring me solutions.

I’d long had a laser sharp ability to identify shortcomings, but I had tended to stop there in my thinking.

Hearing that helped me take the next step, to learn to go beyond seeing the problem. I recognise this is very strong in David and his team: to seek out and create the solution.

We can all do this better, because society teaches us that it is someone else’s problem, that we should be passive critics, when the reality is it is our problem, and if we want the world to be the way we believe it should be, it is up to us to create it. Not to expect others to do it the way it should be done, in our opinion.

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You seem to be confused. Nothing I have said is negative, its all quite positive. Claiming that Maidsafe may be sole creator of its reputation is not being negative its stating the obvious. You seem desperate to counter my claims about past events but cannot refute my claims. Only “Ive been part of it”

Yes, and rather than conveniently ignore my contributions and constructive critiques, please note my ideas here on this forum and on BNK. But that would dilute your pitch?

Also note you have not contributed to the exchange other than to insinuate Im ill equipped to participate in this discussion. Interesting how I see nothing from you that moves the conversation forward. No ideas, no thoughts. Just hiding from whats really going on.

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Everyone is free to judge the validity of your opinions here for themselves, both what you’ve written about MaidSafe and about my motives (“desperate” :slight_smile:) and my contribution to this discussion.

You have contributed ideas. Well done, ideas can be useful, but that wasn’t what I meant by “how can I be of practical help?”

If you’ve made some practical contributions to the project there’s no need to be modest about them, letting others know what you’ve been doing out of sight can encourage others in their own endeavours. Personally I welcome both.

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Who decided that only practical contributions were counted? And who defines Practical" I decide what is appropriate and when its appropriate. Its wrong and irresponsible suggesting people don’t contribute because they don’t pound their chest in public and post their every move online.

You and I have had this duel before over my commentary. Im always surprised with your shortsightedness.

Im involved since early 2014. Followed daily since. Was at the Maidsafe booth in New York in 2014. Im a fan and Im not posting frivolous bs on this forum. I respect David Irvine but Im not a David Irvine disciple, blindlessly following him in search of detractors and pretending all is well when its not. I like real commentary. Hard stuff. Like why is the BNK not oversold? Why was it so difficult to raise money? Why do mods on this forum get to post bs about that funding with no one calling them on it. Why do some outsiders think this forum is not the best place to chat about Maidsafe?

I am currently contributing to the success of Maidsafe by asking you, a highly respected member and thinker, a simple question about the Maidsafe roadmap. I asked in a thread that is about roadmaps. You wont answer me because you’re afraid your answer would have “negative” connotations. Sad and too bad for the rest of us because your opinions are sometimes insightlful.

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Roadmaps are always used whether we want to accept it or nor. There are several here

  1. SAFE network roadmap

  2. MaidSafe rollout roadmap

  3. MAidSafe growth roadmap (Partnerships, marketing etc.)

So SAFE roadmap should be clear by now I hope. It’s Alpha 1 2 3 … Beta 1 2 … etc. then release. The components are mostly known and includes safecoin. In terms of the schedule and component parts of each release, we just don’t know. We do, however, update every week with what we do know. This is influenced by the team size at that time, feedback on released code/API’ etc.

So SAFE roadmap is what it is, in release stages and going though a schedule we hope to tighten to a more waterfall approach. RFC’s play a huge part here and allow folks to see what’s coming and what’s implemented in almost real time.

The MaidSafe roadmaps though are very well mapped out in the business plan that investors get when they want. That is pretty detailed and is a business plan. Like all such plans we know it will not go that way, but at this time it would be what we expect to happen.

In terms of growth, well many now know we are starting with a Hong Kong joint venture, all going well and will be expanding this as we move on. That will be determined by who we meet and talk to as well as the influence of the code base. i.e. right now we can supply a substantial amount of tech and skill to satisfy the requirements of such deals.

@nicklambert @Viv and I have talked much of this roadmap issue, especially recently and I have said to remove it, we have all agreed on this now. So the current dev road maps will be removed from the site where we will focus people on the current release (Alpha/Beta etc.) and weekly progress reports that are made. Folk can then see for themselves the progress or lack, thereof.

I am very focussed now on MaidSafe pushing the SAFE network out and spending time on growth and fulfilling those business plans. In parallel we will continue as quickly as possible to get more folk involved in the API’s and development opportunities we are creating.

TL;DR The roadmap is the release schedule, it will itself improve as we can define what is in the pipeline more clearly. This will coincide with the next several weeks work on finalising the API examples/tutorials and vaults running form peoples houses. The latter probably taking the form of more testnets before it combines with release core API’s etc. (client code),

The weekly report should I hope make this all acceptable and help people understand how and why any investments and commitments are used by us to progress the released network. If we get the team built fast then delivery will be faster, if we get great feedback it will also go faster.

I think, different from many projects/products we will not have the network working and not release, waiting on some marketing “time” etc. It will happen on the very day we are happy it’s complete and tested enough for release and everyone on this forum will see that coming, I hope they currently do.

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anyone heard from @bluebird recently ? … I haven’t seen him around in the forum for a while…

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I was wondering the same thing yesterday, no clue.

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From talking with product and project managers, I have learned that they like to split out a delivery plan from a road map. They seem to consider them as separate things.

A road map is a list of priorities vs a time line. The time line is often vague time wise and just highlights what order things will be delivered in.

A delivery plan on the other hand is about features and dates. It tends to be shorter term in focus, perhaps only a quarter or two. It outlines what will be delivered and when.

I have been involved with and observed endless debates about trying to merge these two concepts into one - a road map with accurate delivery dates on a long time scale - and it never works. Things just change too much as the road map evolves too much with feedback from delivered features and new demands from stakeholders. That doesn’t stop the executives bemoaning the lack of accurate dates stretching out into the future, but the reality is, it would be folly to try.

A road map should be taken as intended - an outline of sequenced priorities. A delivery plan can then highlight details and estimates in the short term.

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I note that you don’t want to share any practical contributions you feel you’ve made (beyond ideas and opinion - which contrary to what you stated about me, I did acknowledge have value).

Now, what is it that you asked, and I have not answered?

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Have another look at my response. Im satisfied with my contributions. Disregard my request for commentary, David posted a roadmap in response to my post.

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What is so bad with the roadmap that it has to be ditched?

Will there be an alternative to the information these graphics convey, this is the best visual guide we have to the workings of Safe.

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Of course Maidsafe can put out an ETA, but as they got burned doing that before, they choose not to, as the downside of not making the deadline is bigger than the potential upside of making the deadline by a long shot. I think it is that simple and totally understandable. Non believers… they can believe what they want, but if and once Maidsafe drops it doesnt matter anymore what people believed or not.

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Also, the more non believers, the less demand for maidsafe coins the cheaper… good opportunity to stack up on cheap maidsafe coins…

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Yea i wonder this aswell, will we have soon none ?

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Yes I think this is a valid point, the components that make up SAFE , both vaults and client parts should be clear for folks. Particularly security auditors and developers wishing to get into the heart of the code. The more the merrier.

The best place is likely though the api docs and tutorials, perhaps something we need to consider more @frabrunelle ?

[edit]
The reason to ditch the roadmap terminology though or something like a public developer roadmap is that some folks really want a countdown timer, so a more absolute approach like this makes sense. It would clarify the component parts and the updates may even become easier to follow then.

If we get to a waterfall process then there will be a bit more visibility of what’s coming (perhaps 6-8 week lookahead), but just way to busy and lacking resource (which is improving) at the moment to satisfy this professionally enough.

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This roadmap page has been providing a visual aid to the logical progress of development and was developed in response to calls for a timeline. Since it’s introduction, it seems the calls for timelines have been very small… folks can see what comes next.

In reality it’s a visual progress report and to take it down without providing something better will likely result in a shitstorm erupting in troll land.

Why not re-cast it as a ‘progress report’ with the same front page exposure…I’m confused why it’s suddenly become an issue…looks fine from this side of the curtain.

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A roadmap without timelines is invaluable and gives you an opportunity to showcase exactly where the Safenetwork will fit in the grand scheme of things. You know where it fits, the devs know, Nick knows, many longtime followers here know, but few other people know - including many newer forum members. IMO attracting attention to this project should be a priority. There are opportunities to leverage current events like Dropbox, Google Drive and Microsoft OneDrive cloud services blocked in Turkey following leaks - Turkey Blocks and A decentralized web would give power back to the people online | TechCrunch to bring awareness to Maidsafe and its potential.

Greater awareness of things to come may solve this.

Are you are saying it needs too much work? Disagree, all the building blocks are there, “only assembly required”