Safenet progress questions

I don´t know when it was said the last time, I only know it has been said on many different occasions. It was usually said when people asked for results. If I find some time I can look it up.

Oh, that´s absolutely fine, I thought I said something entirely incomprehensible. I´m always up to improve my English :wink:

It has changed since they stopped with the dates they never could keep. The accusations and hamming the team got when another date passed was a lot of the stress. I don’t know personally the management process in MAIDSAFE, but i DO KNOW that good project management can proceed without set dates for milestones in the needed roadmap

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It seems to me like most can agree that a roadmap without timeframes would be good? But besides, they sometimes even give timeframes, like how many dev tutorials per timeframe, etc. So more like short-term timeframes, which is great I think.

/edit lol, my post needs timeframe deduplication

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With respect I think it was well beyond (also remembering that it´s not long ago [end 2015] that David framed February/March 2016 for an MVP), but I have no intent in getting to a fact checking debate. Just want to say that I had a very different perception. There may have been accusations, but most of the debate was about the need of a roadmap rather than the need to deliver.

Also, I don´t believe we need set dates (did I say so? hopefully not), but yes, I believe the team and PR would do way better with milestones and estimations.

These two are actually related. Those familiar with dev work know ETAs are just a tool to silence management for long enough that some work can be done, too. Deadlines are not a development thing, they are a business management thing, of which two we know that the former produces worth, the latter leaches off of it (sry for the overdone cynicism; it’s kinda fun :joy_cat:)

My point is, giving ETAs is kind of irresponsible but, in the presence of managerial pressure, a necessary evil. I’m happy the Maidsafe management (as devs themselves) could raise above this unnecessary pressure to produce a meaningless number. Not having an ETA is actually a sign of honesty.


As an explanation for what ETAs are meaningless in a literal sense (i.e. not as a “we hate them” kind of sense.) Software is a network of interconnected concepts and components, so when you find a design error, while it usually affects just a small part, it can just as easily affect almost everything. Will it be a 5-minute fix or a 2-week redesign? There’s literally no way to foresee that before it happens. It’s not like chopping trees; your error population does not have a “mean time of fix”, and you don’t know how many of them are out there, or how many more will be produced.

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I posted the official roadmap and asked if it was accurate. I liked the detail but Nick said it was too confusing and said they were discussing it last week. Is Nicks reply and them discussing it mean its getting attention and it will be done ? Time will tell.

David responded on the BNK forum that test safecoin was a minimum 4 months away. Could that forecast also mean test safecoin was 7 years away? It does sound better when you say its mininum 4 months away and now we have a timeline. Massaging certain things that relate to time creates a timeline. This is not cool and I have been vocal about making promises or creating illusions of timelines.

Many public companies have been taken private because they cannot stand the pressures from shareholders and founders are sick and tired of always having to answer to boardmembers that only understand the needs of shareholders. David doesn’t have the luxury of financing this project himswlf so he has the unenviable task of balancing the needs of all participants.

I see an unhealthy focus on spinning mediocrity into success. It became evident with progress on the fundraise. One person posting was boasting financial results on day one but neglected to include that the fundraising had started 3 or 4 days earlier. Meeting the minimum seemed to be the goal even for Chris Dixon on Bttf who pumped the investor to take it over the minimum but I didn’t hear any pumping to take it to the final goal. Such a big deal to get it over the minimum though. IMO this fundraiser was less about money and more about how the community and investing public perceived Maidsafe. While it raised money (actually less than the minimum b/c the $600k was already in the mill) it did not reveal any excitement for the project.

I’m a big believer in what David , Nick and Team are doing and have come to undertstand how magnanimous a task they have and do believe they need to take all the time they need- without pressure. I think there are many things that could be done differently outside of the development and have said as much.

I see apoligists as @FollowTheCycles noted. I see David’s loyal followers always at the ready with sword in hand. I hope they see criticism as a tool for success.

With the funding in place lets hope that budgets are immediately created and spent on marketing - so Maidsafe gets removed form the top 100 Blockchain companies and a roadmap (sans dates) is created and we an all be proud to promote.

I suggest that is not difficult to create a timeline for creating a roadmap. This is a reasonable request.

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I see apoligists as @FollowTheCycles noted. I see David’s loyal followers always at the ready with sword in hand.

Simplistic characterisations are signs of propaganda and a tool of demigods.

Criticism is fine, but mostly what we see is opinion, in this thread opinion that rehashed an old well worn topic without answering the points made against timelines in the past. It was just restated that it was the opinion of one person that timelines with dates were not just applicable, but essential. They did not claim any real world experience to back up this opinion. So what was that worth?

It’s like someone who can’t accept they lost the argument, waits for some time, and raises it again without saying anything new. If this wasn’t a public forum, we could just ignore that, but it isn’t, so the points have to be answered again, and again because many people reading will then be ill informed and tend to accept the unanswered point as valid. Giving MaidSafe and the project a bad name.

Being against that is not being apologist, it is about wanting the facts and arguments presented so they can be properly evaluated

It is fine to disagree, but pointless, wasteful and ultimately amounts to trolling if someone returns again and again without anything new to add.

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Nothing in this thread or others relating to timelines have given Maidsafe a bad name. If Maidsafe has a bad name its because of Maidsafe. You cannot defend the history of broken promises, poor communication, failed strategies, perceived or otherwise. You expect people to buy what you are selling without question or concern. Much of this consternation is a result of expectations of ROI. There are not people complaining of delays because they they need the safenet to watch porn or access darknet or buy cocaine. These are shareholders that want and feel they deserve a say in whats going on. Timelines have “proven” to be a disaster for Maidsafe and its investors because they were once used.

What about a company that, in the past, returned again and again and offered false hope? Has that been fully addressed? Does it continue?

I see you picked only one little part of my post. What your thoughts on getting a roadmap?

FTR Im not advocating for timelines but lack of a reliable roadmap is troubling.

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Firstly, the reason MaidSafe won’t get a bad name from this thread is because the opinion has been responded to, again, by people who have followed this project for a long time and have the understanding of development, business, and life to have formed a different opinion, and argue it convincingly. Just my opinion :wink:

You speculate that the motives here are in line with what I assume are your own (concerned investors) which may or may not be true, but the are many other possible reasons. But by all means assume the ones you think strengthen the force of your opinion, it didn’t.

You seem to have formed a very negative opinion of MaidSafe. It’s nice for you to be honest about this at last. Again, as someone with decades of relevant experience, like @neo, I have a different opinion on this.

I get that you still support the project, so props for you for being able to hold that contradiction. Few can do that, and we see the result when someone flips from supportive and positive, to negative.

I disagree with your characterisation of past events, all of which I’ve been a part of.

My observation is that it’s in the interests of everyone who supports the goals, or who is here as an investor (but not speculators) to do whatever they can to help make the project a success.

To me this does not mean berating criticism, because criticism is helpful. Criticism in the sense of reasoned argument, attempting to address failings or identified shortcomings are therefore welcome - particularly when supported by constructive action and backed up relevant life experience and skills that are put to practical use.

This was something different, that we see from time to time, and is not helpful, is not supporting the goals of the project, and won’t help people maximize their ROI.

First question for any critic to ask themselves is: how can I be if practical help beyond criticising others?

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A big life lesson for me was when my boss, co-founder of the startup I was working for said this.

There are two kinds of people, the ones who bring me problems, and those who bring me solutions.

I’d long had a laser sharp ability to identify shortcomings, but I had tended to stop there in my thinking.

Hearing that helped me take the next step, to learn to go beyond seeing the problem. I recognise this is very strong in David and his team: to seek out and create the solution.

We can all do this better, because society teaches us that it is someone else’s problem, that we should be passive critics, when the reality is it is our problem, and if we want the world to be the way we believe it should be, it is up to us to create it. Not to expect others to do it the way it should be done, in our opinion.

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You seem to be confused. Nothing I have said is negative, its all quite positive. Claiming that Maidsafe may be sole creator of its reputation is not being negative its stating the obvious. You seem desperate to counter my claims about past events but cannot refute my claims. Only “Ive been part of it”

Yes, and rather than conveniently ignore my contributions and constructive critiques, please note my ideas here on this forum and on BNK. But that would dilute your pitch?

Also note you have not contributed to the exchange other than to insinuate Im ill equipped to participate in this discussion. Interesting how I see nothing from you that moves the conversation forward. No ideas, no thoughts. Just hiding from whats really going on.

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Everyone is free to judge the validity of your opinions here for themselves, both what you’ve written about MaidSafe and about my motives (“desperate” :slight_smile:) and my contribution to this discussion.

You have contributed ideas. Well done, ideas can be useful, but that wasn’t what I meant by “how can I be of practical help?”

If you’ve made some practical contributions to the project there’s no need to be modest about them, letting others know what you’ve been doing out of sight can encourage others in their own endeavours. Personally I welcome both.

Who decided that only practical contributions were counted? And who defines Practical" I decide what is appropriate and when its appropriate. Its wrong and irresponsible suggesting people don’t contribute because they don’t pound their chest in public and post their every move online.

You and I have had this duel before over my commentary. Im always surprised with your shortsightedness.

Im involved since early 2014. Followed daily since. Was at the Maidsafe booth in New York in 2014. Im a fan and Im not posting frivolous bs on this forum. I respect David Irvine but Im not a David Irvine disciple, blindlessly following him in search of detractors and pretending all is well when its not. I like real commentary. Hard stuff. Like why is the BNK not oversold? Why was it so difficult to raise money? Why do mods on this forum get to post bs about that funding with no one calling them on it. Why do some outsiders think this forum is not the best place to chat about Maidsafe?

I am currently contributing to the success of Maidsafe by asking you, a highly respected member and thinker, a simple question about the Maidsafe roadmap. I asked in a thread that is about roadmaps. You wont answer me because you’re afraid your answer would have “negative” connotations. Sad and too bad for the rest of us because your opinions are sometimes insightlful.

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Roadmaps are always used whether we want to accept it or nor. There are several here

  1. SAFE network roadmap

  2. MaidSafe rollout roadmap

  3. MAidSafe growth roadmap (Partnerships, marketing etc.)

So SAFE roadmap should be clear by now I hope. It’s Alpha 1 2 3 … Beta 1 2 … etc. then release. The components are mostly known and includes safecoin. In terms of the schedule and component parts of each release, we just don’t know. We do, however, update every week with what we do know. This is influenced by the team size at that time, feedback on released code/API’ etc.

So SAFE roadmap is what it is, in release stages and going though a schedule we hope to tighten to a more waterfall approach. RFC’s play a huge part here and allow folks to see what’s coming and what’s implemented in almost real time.

The MaidSafe roadmaps though are very well mapped out in the business plan that investors get when they want. That is pretty detailed and is a business plan. Like all such plans we know it will not go that way, but at this time it would be what we expect to happen.

In terms of growth, well many now know we are starting with a Hong Kong joint venture, all going well and will be expanding this as we move on. That will be determined by who we meet and talk to as well as the influence of the code base. i.e. right now we can supply a substantial amount of tech and skill to satisfy the requirements of such deals.

@nicklambert @Viv and I have talked much of this roadmap issue, especially recently and I have said to remove it, we have all agreed on this now. So the current dev road maps will be removed from the site where we will focus people on the current release (Alpha/Beta etc.) and weekly progress reports that are made. Folk can then see for themselves the progress or lack, thereof.

I am very focussed now on MaidSafe pushing the SAFE network out and spending time on growth and fulfilling those business plans. In parallel we will continue as quickly as possible to get more folk involved in the API’s and development opportunities we are creating.

TL;DR The roadmap is the release schedule, it will itself improve as we can define what is in the pipeline more clearly. This will coincide with the next several weeks work on finalising the API examples/tutorials and vaults running form peoples houses. The latter probably taking the form of more testnets before it combines with release core API’s etc. (client code),

The weekly report should I hope make this all acceptable and help people understand how and why any investments and commitments are used by us to progress the released network. If we get the team built fast then delivery will be faster, if we get great feedback it will also go faster.

I think, different from many projects/products we will not have the network working and not release, waiting on some marketing “time” etc. It will happen on the very day we are happy it’s complete and tested enough for release and everyone on this forum will see that coming, I hope they currently do.

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anyone heard from @bluebird recently ? … I haven’t seen him around in the forum for a while…

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I was wondering the same thing yesterday, no clue.

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From talking with product and project managers, I have learned that they like to split out a delivery plan from a road map. They seem to consider them as separate things.

A road map is a list of priorities vs a time line. The time line is often vague time wise and just highlights what order things will be delivered in.

A delivery plan on the other hand is about features and dates. It tends to be shorter term in focus, perhaps only a quarter or two. It outlines what will be delivered and when.

I have been involved with and observed endless debates about trying to merge these two concepts into one - a road map with accurate delivery dates on a long time scale - and it never works. Things just change too much as the road map evolves too much with feedback from delivered features and new demands from stakeholders. That doesn’t stop the executives bemoaning the lack of accurate dates stretching out into the future, but the reality is, it would be folly to try.

A road map should be taken as intended - an outline of sequenced priorities. A delivery plan can then highlight details and estimates in the short term.

I note that you don’t want to share any practical contributions you feel you’ve made (beyond ideas and opinion - which contrary to what you stated about me, I did acknowledge have value).

Now, what is it that you asked, and I have not answered?

Have another look at my response. Im satisfied with my contributions. Disregard my request for commentary, David posted a roadmap in response to my post.

What is so bad with the roadmap that it has to be ditched?

Will there be an alternative to the information these graphics convey, this is the best visual guide we have to the workings of Safe.

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