SAFE TAX and its uses


#1

SAFE Tax

Two predictions. The IRS and state tax systems will use SAFE or a system very much like it. Taxation will go more tangible, like whack-a-mole if it pops out of the virtual it will be taxed. But there will be bobbing for apples into the virtual as well, and a SAFE type system will end up making both of those functions more reliable and verifiable.

For some Tax is a pure evil, but I think there may be a more nuanced way of looking at this so that there is less resistance from the public sector to crypto. I’d like to see more openness to un-pegged straight fiat crypto. For some reason I no longer have the aversion I once did to a global currency but I think its because I realize that jurisdictions will end up with tax power even if they can’t monopolize a currency and sense (because I can’t claim to fully understand it) that the real gain will be an end to speculation and resultant artificial scarcity (in the negative sense) that pegging enables.

Consider the following:

The main point of tax is to get people to mingle to drive them together and identify with a society.

The first applications of writing were for domesticating humans or taxation- Sumarian- taxation
drove the development of writing.

Tax has been the core organizing principle since the start of agriculture. It comes out of the
biological pattern of storing seed.

Money, profit, debt, cooptation are functions or expressions of the tax power.

Tax is a supplemental glue beyond sex and heredity to keep the group cohesion necessary for crowd control and stability when a society scales beyond a certain size.

When a state buys, it buys demand, and generally nothing else.

Tax has always been the main source of demand or demand creation in society.

Tax has been the primary axis for the fungibility of money and power the only axis that makes sense even as it has always implicated technocracy- regardless tax forms the primary link between money and power and it will be there after fads in bribery like lobbying-sponsorship are gone.

Again, Crypto will not lock out taxes just drive them to more to tangible assets.

Tax is what enables and props up fiat currency which is made of quantized demand (pure fiat is
better than pegged fiat- but pegging is just another tax- (a bad one)

Tax is the main habitual reinforcement of a currencies’ mind share and of state mind share ultimately- currency’s mindshare is a function of tax.

Tax is the core of demand based money and this holds even when the tax is tied through scarcity
inducing economic processes such as mining physical or virtual.

Tax one person give it to another, this is designed to create discourse, which surprisingly is the core
reinforcement of societal identity and also the core of state power

Many things are taxes that are generally not recognized as such including Fed interest rate changes, loop holes which dissuade abuse of money power, and actual strategies to address inflation and deflation, printing money, also sponsorship which taxes time, attention and speech but again drives discourse and the cohesion priority.

Tax trades liberty for security/control but by degree, its point of leverage or germinal point is the common defense, it is ultimately a crowd control problem e.g., channel people down a street and make sure they don’t crash at intersections by providing stop lights.

Tax is a technology of control, it makes money and power fungible and places the technocrats in control but in any society that has moved beyond hereditary tribalism the technocrats are always in control because of taxation.

Tax makes the enforcement of law practical and therefore makes law possible.

Tax even expresses as regular low grade fear injection to keep the body politic molten and pliable so as to avoid ideological hardening and the certainty that leads to disruptive uprising- a distraction tax.

When colonial Brits were saying that American homesteaders were so free with so much access to liberty that they couldn’t be made to do anything the Brits weren’t necessarily saying liberty was the problem but that there wasn’t enough of a basis for societal cohesion to provide for the common defense- at that point the tax was missing either in force or actuality.

When Tyler was saying the people could vote themselves a share of the wealth charitably this was really saying they would grab control of the tax power and lose the common defense etc.

Post nuclear weapons and post solution of “the economic problem” (50 years ago) the technocrats are enshrined in power more than taxes already allowed for.

Every modern technocratic state is a pure welfare state, it taxes everyone else and hands it over to everyone so that people don’t drift apart, it fertilizes relationships even those derived from overwork (another tax function to drive people together) to preserve the control needed to hold the social fabric together.

The isms in a sense are truly dead including capitalism, communism and socialism- but top down centralized technocratic crowd control totally planned welfare culture is not dead because keeping the peace is our highest value- its a reflex prior to our concern over conformism vs liberty, our value of due process is an expression of this priority.

Its much easier to have a dissuasive loop hole or a tax subsidy that to tells people “no”- just change the scenery, build a berm or take down a bridge or build a bridge- this is way easier than legislation and is technical carrot and stick classic tax policy.

Tax is what happens while we are busy philosophizing its the contingency, the glue. People try to lobby and sponsor to nudge technocrats saying for instance that they have great sums of capital to look after and should be given privilege but its ultimately an argument with technocrats over the likes of rotting capital and letting it burn (a defacto tax) or the paradox of thrift or addressing deflation or inflation.

The utility here is what the insane neocons were talking about when they said the “rational state’s only objective was the increase of its own power” or things along those lines. It wasn’t saying power without end but charitably just trying to maintain the tax glue in the face of increasing population scale etc. Well that’s too charitable they only believe in the right of the superior (who they choose) to rule over the designated inferiors (their detractors)

Technocrats are mediators that is the sausage making of tax.

SAFE’s PTP is a Tax.

If trumps tariffs are just another petrol bailout, petrol itself is just another tax. Tariffs are the nuclear weapons of taxes. They are being used to try to convert power gained in 70 years of persisting in petrol past its useful life into buying a little bit of time (too late) against lower cost of goods coming up green economies.

Historical origin of Tax
After finding that it was possible to domesticate only a very small number of first plants and and then only possible to domesticate a very small number of animal species man turned the knowledge gained in these domestications toward domesticating or civilizing of man. There was a pattern with seed reproduction in agriculture such that seeds had to be stored for winters and the next planting, this was the introduction of the tax or the banking pattern (money and banking are functions of tax.) As it turned out members of a clan or family had trouble dealing with strangers without violence and with the increasing scale of groups it was therefore necessary to have a police force to keep the peace and that required a tax to support the policing specialization. Prior to agriculture in small groups without specialization, gifting barter without definite time frames for reciprocity was the norm. With scale came specialization and with different skill sets and varying abilities individuals accrued surpluses that were of no use to them individually that needed to be redistributed for the good of the whole. Again this was a tax. So you can see it grew out of crowd control and refuse functions and roads. Peace and defense are the germinal instance for a tax. (can look up Jared Diamond’s work on some of this)

Tax in organic systems
You can see this function at scale in organic systems with circulatory systems and such systems tend to be autonomic or or at least partially involuntary. Think of the blood as something like money. Individual cells are dependent on the survival of the organism and the organism is dependent on their individual contributions for survival and the circulatory system both gives and takes away and hence the flow of blood brings goods to each cell but also taxes each cell.

Progressive Taxation is not what it seems.
Progressive taxation is not about getting those who can most pay to pay more, because that assumes greater contribution in the first place. That is not an assumption made by sober people. No, what progressive taxation is about is allowing the rich to keep their name associated with product that other people created/produced (even by putting in place a chain of automation) as long as they do responsible things with the product by using the prescribed loop holes at tax time. When they do otherwise they they pay the full tax (which could have be 94% as it was for a long time in the US) or go to jail for the abuse of the power of money or abuse through the use of undue power generally and so progressive taxation is about dis-incentivizing greed. Progressive taxation also recognizes that allowing people to have control over the way money is spent is generally much more efficient than having the state introduce other steps by less interested more abstracted parties into the process (See Neil Gabler’s Disincentivising Greed)


#2

I will be honest and declare that I didn’t read all of the above (it is late and I’ve had a wee drink), but tax is the antithesis of a free to use network. It is taken through threat of force and surely has no role in SAFENetwork.


#3

I’ll be honest and admit the same, while saying that tax is a legitimate way for people to pay for shared good(s). The idea that it is theft is unhelpful IMO, because it imagines a ‘country’ (a place that no longer exists) where each person fends for themselves and does not exist within a collective that comes with agreed norms and principles. The reality is of course that we are all born into such collectives, unless we live in an isolated tribe, where the norms have remained appropriate to a small population entity.

The problem with the ‘tax is theft’ perspective is that it is a minority, not that it is ‘wrong’.

But to put it forward without a way to realise it, or more realistically, witjout a way to realise it and retain the benefits of taxation for collective good, is wasted energy.

There are many faults of centralised power, but to focus on the abuses of taxation is to focus on a symptom, not the real problem.

So I’m with Warren (well, at least the start having not read the whole thing :slight_smile:).

What are developer rewards but a tax levied on network participants and used to fund the collective good that is maintenance of the network?

So I don’t see anything wrong with the principle of taxation, in that respect at least.


#4

Actually, in theory any ways, it is imposed through democratic vote by our elected representatives for the purpose of paying for needed services. In theory :grinning:


#5

The theory that PTP and PTD are tax assumes that the payments are taken from someone.

They are not. They are separate from the farming rewards and in no way reduces those rewards. If the PTP or PTD are not there farmers get 100% of FR . If PTP or PTD are there then farmers get 100% of FR. In other words no change.

The same goes for payments for resources. Resource payment is a factor of how much free space there is (FR) and not changed by how much if any PTP or PTD is paid out.

Tax has to be extracted from earnings/income/profits otherwise it is NOT a tax.

Sorry to shot down PTP is a tax argument.

Definitely. Tax does not make a society but rather is a way to pay for it. So the basis of the argument is also false that tax is what brings together a society. Any society already exists before taxes are levied and the society is large enough to have a “government/authority” recognised as the one to collect such taxes.

SAFE does not collect anything for PTD or PTP. Taxes are collected from “people”

The uncreated coins belong to the network already and it has the right to use them for whatever it wants. And if it is not reducing farming rewards then it cannot in any way be considered a tax.

tl;dr

The basis of this argument is wrong and completely unfounded, so any conclusions as a consequence has to be wrong.


#6

@neo And who is the network? Prior to scale societies never needed taxes and the argument is not that taxes make a society just that tax is a supplemental binding force that has been needed at scale but that is only one argument. Almost anything can be a tax and many many things are indirect taxes.


#7

The network is the autonomous network. It belongs to itself and we run it on our machines but have no control over the running network. We can kill it yes, we can harm it yes, but we do not own its processes nor its uncreated coin. If we did own its uncreated coin then your holding of coins would be worth a lot less since the 10 or 100 thousand people running nodes own 400 or 40 thousand coins each. It just doesn’t make sense to say the people own the network in that manner.

So coming back to it. The network is not a society, it is not a government, it is not a taxing entity (it collects no tax off people), it is an autonomous network owned by itself given rights by programmers but still its own owner. Its not intelligent like an AI, but its a machine owned by itself. We support its existence by supplying hardware and bandwidth and are paid for that, but do not own it.

Your idea it is a taxing entity is false on 2 fronts. It owns all the uncreated coin anyhow so no need to tax and secondly it does not take anything from people’s earnings or holdings. And there is no indirect taxes since PTP & PTD are paid without touching any one person’s holdings/earnings/resource-payments. It pays them out of its own (uncreated) coin that it owns. The coins it owns is not public monies like taxes are.

Because tribes shared all foods and materials - 100% tax if you want.

Tax is not what binds society together. and your statement showed that. It might help to keep societies together by enabling sewage, roads, etc but it is not the force that adds others to societies. It merely enables societies to be larger.

Yes if you convolute things too far. Are the monies you pay for food from the farmer taxes? I don’t care if the farmer then pay taxes out of his/her earnings/profits. The payment for goods is not taxes. Nor is the money I spent on those goods taxes. The network does away with the need of taxes and is simply a true buyer/seller of goods. PTD & PTP are the network paying for goods from people who produce them. It pays for them to enhance its operations and attract more people to use the network. It is just a cost of operation.

To say it is a tax is simply trying to further the argument that tax is thief to the network. Its really a convoluted way of thinking


#8

I am suggesting that governments will uses this- even if they cannot control it completely or even to any great degree if it turns out to be a more rational currency basis that it may be a more rational basis for their tax regimes.

Given rights by programmers- that is curious, but presumably its in competition with forks that keep it fluid and responsive until there is face book style lock-in over end user sunk costs that can be exploited for enclosure but hopefully there will never be any of that lock-in in any variant people actually choose because there will deliberate explicit anti lock-in alternatives from the start its part of SAFE DNA. So the social contract here originates in the end users being willing to use forks with no EULA type baggage.

When tax is present money becomes a function of tax, tax ends up giving it its force or legitimacy. Fiat is quantized demand and tax is the prime mover for that demand replenishing it creating its mind share. I suspect PTP or even farming coins will kind of work that way.

The insight that tax is kind of like a force that overcomes a weak nuclear force to harness the strong familial nuclear force of family and friendship and social cohesion came from reading a public policy text book taxation where early democratic Greek society (that is post pure slavery tribal based more agrarian society in Greece) had to literally tax one brother and give it to the other and vice versa to keep them knowing each other and identifying as Greek. It was about discourse (true core of trade and commerce) it was what got them to know each other and be interested in entering into relationship and not drifting apart as strangers. And literally in practice a pot stirring government will take from one person and give to another knowing that the created difference of potential will attract them together in motive relationship. I actually think this process is a prime peace keeping force even globally its part of what holds off nuclear wars etc.

Old fashioned taxation was tax the poor and give to the rich or the king. But now its tax in every direction including taxing the rich and giving it to the poor. Its kind of like if you give that bit of otherwise barter to someone they will give you back your bill. This notion of currency as bill (demand and the whole thing being demand) is the core of fiat- the dollar bill as bill or demand, same with private tax or profit or straight debt. Debit is just a credit and credit is just a debit.

But Neo, I am saying that Governments will be using this as their accounting system. Think about what that means. And they may try to fork a version they prefer and push it on us. And if they try that it will be driven by the utility of the tax function. There are so many things that governments do that seem inexplicable if looked at through some Machiavellian or other lens but make perfect sense when looked at through the lens of cultural cohesion. You’ll even here people say that in the end law is culture. In the end culture is its own glue or culture is glue. A nation or large scale society is like an hugely extended family made of strangers, there is a cohesion cost-beyond things like a lingua franca and common currency.

Rejecting tax currency as just reducing to tax misses the point that tax has always been the primary demand creator in every society. There are times when you have to create artificial demand- almost like cultivating scarcity/desire (hopefully in the non abusive way) in times when that needs to happen and being able to do it reliably.


#9

And you repetitively said PTP is tax (before you rewrote 2/3rds of your topic), and this means you were talking a lot more than governments. I was answering your original topic.

You have now edited 2/3rds of your topic and made it more political speech than about SAFE (not nice to those replying to the original premise). If politicians use crypto or SAFE for taxation is beyond technical/marketing aspects of SAFE since taxation can use anything stones, gold, gems, beads, glass, paper (money), crypto and even SAFE.

So I’ll leave it at what I said since I don’t wish to get into political and/or taxation discussions in the #marketing category. If this topic heads off into more political/taxation only speech then another @moderators is going to move it to the rightful category of #off-topic. You did change the tone of the topic midstream


#10

That was because I noticed I had double posted about half of it so that the bottom half was redundant, removed that and went through and tried to clean up some of the sentences- tax day for me personally had wife pushing me not to be late for appointment and double posted earlier.


#11

I am happy to see voluntary use of the network, which is why I feel the concept of taxation has no role in it.

When I subscribe to a service, I willingly and voluntarily engage with it. I accept its terms of membership and the consequences of breaking them. I am also free to unsubscribe if it no longer suits.

For me, this reflects how I will engage with the SAFENetwork. It is by voluntary association.

Taxation means many things to many people, but it certainly is not universally accepted as voluntary, nor is the association between the individual and the state.

I don’t think we need to get into a debate on the how’s and why’s to recognise that using the word taxation is not a good fit here. It is off putting to many and it inaccurately described how individuals will interact with SAFENetwork (with or without PTP).


#12

Good! Let them tax location and simultaneously stop the game of monopoly and expose clearly just how much they are extracting from the populous.


#13

Here it is, tax collection as opposed by Hood, a hooded hoodlum, in used condition:

  taxcollector

Below the ad it says, “Practically new. I have played this game three times. It never was a hit with my group.”

Enlarged, “Turn Order” shows as “1. Market, 2. Load Merchant bag, 3. Declaration, 4. Inspection, 5. End of Round”.