SAFE Network Fundamentals: Context

I am fairly certain there will be app level functionality to make this seem pretty transparent. Also things like faucets that only allow 1 coin per IP or similar can happen when the time is right. Then things like every twitter user that has been on twitter for X period gets one and so on. (twitter/facebook etc.)

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How is this allocated? I don’t see that in the SAFECOIN section of the “Fundamentals”.

Does this mean app developers will earn safecoins and then will have to distribute them to get people to be able to use their app? If so, would this not require some initial investment on the devs part?

They would need each others IP address to enable direct connections @JayBird.

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It is an idea that could be allocated in many ways. People could contribute safecoin to such a scheme etc.

It is not a network fundamental by any means it is just ideas for initial engagement/traction. Like a bitcoin faucet way back, not part of the whitepaper etc.

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Thanks for the clarification. It seems the “schemes” would then be dependent on community participation who would at that point hold safecoin AND would be willing to donate safecoin to increase chances of safenet success. Interested in seeing these ideas when the time arises. Thanks much.

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Sounds promising for hardware wallets

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No comment on these 2 apparent typos or is that the way it will be? Especially the “presence” rather than what I consider it should be "spending"

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I am somewhat confused about #11.

But then, in response to

Nick said

Could someone explain this to me. I see a contradiction.

Perhaps there are no “hops” in direct connections?
But what if I was in a different group?
Is it that once the direct connection is made it is then that the ip address is revealed?
Is it technically possible to have a “pure” direct connection?

Please forgive my ignorance and perhaps silly question.

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Is this a fairly fundamental part of how the network is set up? I guess it would be the default in a way, and in one sense it doesn’t have to make any difference either way, but I can certainly see some advantages in linking a client account with the ability to farm.

Just to follow a train of thought, over on the Safecoin algorithm thread Mav suggested (and I agree) that inclusivity and maintaining decentralisation are two key goals of the network, and these could potentially be endangered by ‘professionalisation’ of farming.

If a client account could be verified by verifiably human browsing(!?), (this verification need never leave the user’s machine,) this could perhaps authorise them to farm a certain number of vaults. I know there’s an old old thread about proof of unique human, and it certainly has some scary connotations, but in the above context needn’t be so, and also need only really be resilient to large scale abuse, a bit like the current invitation system to use Alpha 2. Not particularly easy technically I imagine, but we’re moving into an age where this sort of thing is more and more normal and possible.

To look at it from an economic and social point of view, I’ve always thought one of the failings of market theory in terms of happiness of the population is the way it separates consumers and producers into two separate groups, when in fact we’re all just the same people wearing different hats. It would be nice to make that link again in order to create a better functioning community. A network by the people, for the people!

This could also have benefits in terms of marketing if it was a very normal thing for those using the network as consumers to be the ones who have access to setting up a vault (I know this will be the case anyway, but would just take it a step further in people’s consciousness.) If the only qualification you needed for a part time job was to browse the internet for a while - Hello Young People!

Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble, and not particularly well phrased (I’m in a bit of a rush), but just thought I’d put it out there as a thought…

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That’s correct, direct connections don’t require hops on the SAFE Network. Conversely, if you are messaging a SAFE public ID, for example, then that is something that would require hops as it would be an indirect connection that passes through other network groups.

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I think this topic/thread should be pinned to the top of a category so it isn’t missed by any newcomers.

Maybe you could compile a list of topics (+ small descr) that newcomers should read, like this one and the make a topic and 10 key facts and the primer and …

Then we can pin that to the beginners category

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Maybe I’m just oblivious but I haven’t seen an FAQ section around here. Could help with entry and community workload.

There’s one on the SAFE Network site https://safenetwork.tech/faq/

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One here would be nice as most questions are asked on this forum.

I’m a noob, with first thoughts, so go easy on me…

re #12: “The Network will only accept more Vaults when it needs them.”

So let’s say that Bob wants to sybil attack the network with lots of vaults. Doesn’t this incentivize Bob to spam the network with lots of bogus content in order to require more network resources, which he can then “provide”?

I understand that there is a cost to adding content, so hopefully that slows Bob down enough. I’m just wondering how well the game theory of this attack has been explored.

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You pointed a major problem for Bob already and that action helps the SAFE economy in the process.

I think you need look at the scale of the issue Bob will have.

  • early in the network’s life with 100 nodes (vaults) then this maybe be a viable attempt. The is likely 50TB total vault space (6TB of unique chunks). Thus adding a TB will mean on average that a few new vaults (maybe 15) will be needed. And thus Bob + everyone else will get a chance to add nodes.
  • still early with 10,000 nodes giving 5,000TB (600TB unique). Bob now needs to add many TB to maybe cause a few new vaults to be accepted
  • After that small to medium network with say 100,000 nodes giving 50,000TB of space (6,000TB unique chunks) means that Bob has to add a lot more than any link can do in a reasonable time.

And then the other issue is that others are adding data, and trying to add nodes. So for every node Bob adds there maybe 100 other nodes added, or even 1000+ nodes.

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Thanks for walking through it with me @neo. I guess difficulty for an attacker will depend also on the real-world value of safecoin and of course attacker’s budget. Hopefully safe network can grow under the radar with “true believers” for long enough to become unassailable.

It’s also not clear to me how much or what types of damage a successful sybil attacker could do, given that everything is encrypted, but I guess they could at least disrupt routing and maybe spoof/lie about where/if data is stored. I have a lot more reading to do, and I look forward to trying out the software as soon as I have enough karma.

Anyway, I hope I don’t come across too negatively. I only think about such things because I want the project to succeed and thrive despite adversaries. I very much like these fundamentals of privacy and self-ownership of data, and I look forward to a day when most people take them for granted because the safe network is already ubiquitous.

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You can test the real vault 1 and the Perpetual SAFE browser without level 1 in the forum. It is really unbelievable how easy is to register a site name and to upload a site:

had the same question, people have told me search for the sybil attack threads and read them all there is everything you ask answered in one way or another

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