SAFE Network Dev Update - August 22, 2019

You do have good points and this is not to say you are wrong or should change your thinking at all and is more for exploring good/bad ways to do it.

I would like though to reiterate what others have also noted and that there is good ways to be critical/skeptic and there are obnoxious ways to do it. Nearly every good point he makes has been made by others in forms of good well mannered questions posed to the dev team. And guess what they are answered and on goes the project without anyone feeling that its just not worth it anymore. But when its done in an obnoxious way as if from an entitled person then it causes moral issues as people are people with real feelings and not robots. Yes the occasional questioning of ones motives can be handled but when each and every member of the company is questioned as to their morals, their ability, their motives as has been done bit by bit over the last year or so then it takes its toll. I have my suspicions that its becoming a self fulfilling prophecy on one or more people.

Ask the skeptical questions as a normal well mannered person and the project is kept on its toes without the destructive method we’ve seen. Others have done it and received answers, but doesn’t cause issues so we don’t always notice it.

To be honest the motivation seems to be one of a trader trying to manipulate the market lower in order to stock up on more cheap MAID at the expense of employee’s well being.

All FUD starts with sparks of truth misrepresented. These people have been there a long time and was always hard work and nowhere to be promoted to. So its not surprising that they look after their own well being and career. The work is still being done so maybe they were all waiting for a time when their particular skills (ie R&D portion) was no longer unique since they are in the grueling work of coding. I know personally a number of people happy to work on new projects researching and writing POC code but bail when it gets to the mundane job of writing code to do the final job and I know people who love it the other way around.

So it was not surprising to see a change of staff (new ones in then older ones leave) when the project no longer was a research&development project and became one of writing the code.

True but the timings explains a lot (see above) For example

Bottom line is that if there is a huge problem then we would not be having releases while indispensable people are leaving. So maybe some of the theories are not quite right.

But yes we all have to use our discernment and consider if there is issues. But unlike the assertion there is no or a lack of transparency, we are being told of departures, times when people are away and it will affect progress. Not many companies anywhere do that in a public forum.

But of course the ones who want to discredit the developers will say that a significant release makes no difference as it allows them to promote the gloom. Its sounding like a conspiracy headed by one person. Suggest people listen to some conspiracy people (eg flat earth) and see the tactics used by conspiracy to promote that we are all sheeple being conned by those in authority (company or government or …)

Too much money to be made, but poisoning the well is not going to help if the cheap coin he buys ends up worthless because of poison.


Yea… We had an unusual amount of unfounded, and desperate, FUD last night. The next day we see the price of maid jump. Capitulation.

It is clear that the Maid team can breath easily and contunie to smash it. The community, and the market are behind them.


Yeah. It’s also worth remembering the number of Coins that have been bought, the majority of which are yet to see the light of day

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Yes this would be my response to this whole thread.

And again, I wish we had some sort of little 5-10 sec clip montage video of each new MaidSafe person saying hi and what their skills etc are, it would benefit everyone greatly in times like these, when some big players move on.

@anon86652309 truly was amazing, a pioneer not from day 1 but probably from day -1,000 or so of MaidSafe, and it was so powerful to meet him and everybody in Troon. Truly some of my most powerful memories, talking and listening to everybody in the office and pubs there. And @anon86652309 especially, was so humble for the amount of genius he had. Extremely likable.

But yeah times change and you can’t predict anyone’s life or changes.

I just wish we could fill this thread with more of the amazing new talent and faces instead of worrying about someone who had changes in their life. And it’s not like @anon86652309 won’t keep in touch, he’s a great guy and MaidSafe tech is created openly and globally. So anyone in the world can chime in if they see something worth commenting on, especially someone with a close history like @anon86652309


It’s hell and brimstone at Maidsafe HQ and I place all the blame on DevOps, they have clearly being making operations too efficient and now the humans are being pushed out.

Their evil plan is to evolve into NoOps and have the entire operation run by batch scripts.


Sorry, I missed your post at the time… (I was away in Brighton giving a talk on the very subject!)

I went into a little detail on how we see the ecosystem shaping up, and why we’ve made the decision to have these distinct apps, over here: SAFE Network Dev Update - June 20, 2019

Hope that helps.


Is David’s Turing Fest speech going to be available to watch?


@Nigel yes, should be. Usually takes them a while to produce/release them after the event but it should be available at some point


Thanks so much for taking the time to reply, @JimCollinson. After reading your remarks, things make a lot more sense now.


You’re welcome!



YES! I was able to translate the last week update before today’s update came out :boxing_glove: :wink: :dragon_face:

Thanks for the hard work of the whole team!новини-22-8-2019/


Since when does everyone agree with each other? (To wit: this post :wink: )

The issue isn’t one of negativity or criticism. It’s one of attitude and intention. IMO starsmick is intentionally trying to disrupt this forum—i.e. trolling—and that doesn’t deserve respect.


I find this a beautiful testament actually.


Great job, is that the one from the Infographics we make together?

Where do you usually post them? Is there a section on your site, I can’t really find any, but I also don’t read Bulgarian that well :joy:


@anon94252342 you are lucky I am not an admin of the forum, because I would blacklist all and every single one of your IP addresses. The amount of tolerance around here is uncommon.



Hail SAFE Network.


I agree with your comments we “really want and need many different types of decentralised data networks with different features to meet different needs" as per the data storage or computationally focused e.g’s you gave.

I don’t fully understand conceptually/operationally what is required (org & tech) to underpin/deliver a “true decentralised price network which enables automatic price seeking on a global flat playing field” . The thoughts/words safe data commons (to create a level playing field) and safe data marketplace (to efficiently connect a resource with a need with a flat playing field) immediately come to mind. To me they describe some of the critical design concepts /operational components (i.e. a non-extractive data exchange/default progressive expenditure reduction efficiencies (DPER) methodology) which could be necessary to deliver to a level playing field/automatic pricing/model/true decentralised price seeking networks model.

Are there any decentralised marketplace-exchange types/benchmarks which we can learn from for a safe data commons/marketplace level playing field/automatic pricing vision? The farthest along the path (in understanding) and best benchmark and I have found is the Ocean protocol blockchain initiative described as a Decentralised Data Exchange protocol to unlock data for AI. In their data marketplace challenge initiative they ask the questionWhat type of data marketplace could you build? … and describe a number of different types of possible

  • a marketplace for buying & selling data at a fixed price
  • a marketplace tuned to a specific vertical, e.g. energy, supply chain data, etc.
  • a marketplace with rich features for discovery, including browsing, search, tagging, and filtering;
  • a marketplace with novel pricing strategies. e.g. royalties for value added, auction model; a data marketplace that emphasizes adding value to data. e.g. add labels to unlabeled data, data cleaning, feature engineering on datasets.

This begs the question … what would a safe data marketplace look like and what should it do? What sort of world do we want a safe commons/marketplace to help create? Where/How could we start/evolve to thetrue decentralised price seeking networks” ideal?

Rivkin’s Guardian article talks about the radical new economic “collaborative commons” system that will emerge from the collapse of capitalism. The transition to a post capitalism, prosumer (vs consumer capitalism) model is based around the transition to near zero marginal cost of production. Rifkin says “it’s going to transform our way of life fundamentally over the coming years,” It already is; we just haven’t framed it.” Given the safenetwork promise to enable a new digital economic system, what sort of safe data commons/marketplace model & functionality will best support this margin reduction transition and equitable redistribution outcome?

In a marketplace where the “extraordinary pace of innovation in energy, communication and transport” is driving the marginal cost of production down, “time based human resource allocation optimisation” or “care capacity” increasingly becomes the critical factor. Care Capacity Management involves mapping the product ecosystem to use the data for decision making to optimise time based resource allocation to specific product or acuity standards/outcomes … so much more specific and leveraged to pre-defined outcomes “an extension of the vertical supply chain ” Ocean Protocol examples!! This can be applied to health, education, IOT i.e. anything which involves people resourcing. The best Care capacity application I have seen which we can learn from is in Health and more specifically Nursing delivery of patient acuity outcomes. Given nursing accounts for 70% of the public system hospital cost and demonstrable cost reductions of 20% plus so this could is a pretty good place to start with an application of safe.

With @happybeing’s help I am trying to learn how to set up a dweb commons blog site. The blog describes a possible safe.commons, data marketplace model as a starting point for further discussion. I have agreed with Mark to write a dWeb blog article about my experience in setting up the dweb commons (blog) so others can learn from it. The further intention of the article is to promote the dWeb blog and incorporate links to the tech (as it evolves/simplifies) as part of the dweb commons operating procedure to secure a “Commons Data Council” Quality Business Operating System (CDC QBOS) product accessible via the site. The objective is to enable self-organising citizens, Community or industries to access, customise deploy their own “CDC QBOS” Data Council product (ultimately ISO quality approved). incorporating a across the safenetwork. The data council objective is to provide a level playing field/automatic pricing/model for community members to access their own Care Capacity system based on their own Council defined standards to support transition to the Rivkin post capitalism model.

The CDC QBOS system is being designed around an existing ISO Approved Quality management system and templated Data Council governance system which has already been implemented in a specific industry with a national mandate. The framework basically exists supported by a project office to sit behind the dweb/safe.commons to manage documentation and deployment, so business systems not a big step… just add the tech . Next step for me is the try and learn how to set up a dweb site which is pretty scary for a tech neanderthal :grimacing: and a better understanding of a true decentralised price network requirements


Coming at this from a different angle I was thinking about this sort of thing lately too.

On a simple level it would be great to have something that was part of the Safe Network App that enabled any file stored to be accessed by a client at a given price, optioned and determined by the owner of the data.

Obviously there would have to be different models to choose from for different types of data/media (eg. per stream, per download etc.) but that’s not necessarily a big problem. Another problem would be to agree set prices for certain types of data, but this could be solved to some extent by search/aggregator apps warning of atypical prices, and setting spend limits.

If it was done like this as an option on the network level it would take away the need for centralised sites to do the financial side of things (and consequently take away their ability to have control of the finances) and they could concentrate on aggregating the data in a way that was most appropriate or popular.

With the inherent capabilities of the SAFE network I imagine doing this on a simple level would be as much of a UX challenge as anything, but could be a good stepping stone to some of the more ambitious things you mention, such as following files around the web and charging for added value etc.

On the other hand I may have completely misunderstood, in which case, don’t mind me!


You make some very good network data “pricing” methodology points. To me the network level option you describe is fundamental for a “global flat playing field”. Whilst I have been very product focused i.e. the Care Capacity Data Council QBOS product I’ve been thinking about the pricing methodology as it is fundamental to the networks success!!! So your “pricing methodology thinking” is very helpful to focus here. Trying to think about how to apply the pricing words/methods you describe in the context of the product defined as

“ Care Capacity (Demand Management) involves mapping the product ecosystem to specific product or acuity standards/outcomes to use the data for decision making to optimise time based resource allocation (similar/extension to the Maidsafe “ie. why did we over/underestimate” project method described by Nadia) …to create better “acuity” outcomes in the most financially efficient way i.e. CCDM DPER (Default progressive expenditure reduction efficiencies).

Some initial connection comments/thoughts

**On a simple level it would be great to have something that was part of the Safe Network App that enabled any file stored to be accessed by a client at a given price, optioned and determined by the owner of the data.”

Agree 100%. …. Solid describe this approach where owner of data via enable access by multiple software/clients so this functionality would seem to be core to any safe/solidonsafe network app to establish what I call a UIA or Universal Information Account i.e. the place on the net which we own and can’t be taken away

If it was done like this as an option on the network level it would take away the need for centralised sites to do the financial side of things (and consequently take away their ability to have control of the finances) and they could concentrate on aggregating the data in a way that was most appropriate or popular”

To create the level playing field/automatic price seeking/ true decentralised price seeking networks David describes, this pricing functionality would probably need to be inbuilt to the “Commons Data Council” care capacity product/Quality Business Operating System so they can concentrate as you say on enabling aggregating data on behalf of mutual members.

"Obviously there would have to be different models to choose from for different types of data/media (eg. per stream, per download etc.) but that’s not necessarily a big problem. Another problem would be to agree set prices for certain types of data, but this could be solved to some extent by search/aggregator apps warning of atypical prices, and setting spend limits.”

Looking at how this could apply to a CCD dWeb app build around an existing Care Capacity platform as an initial stepping stone so this is a key area for further discussion.

The obvious tech questions are … i. how do we incorporate this as part of the safenetwork app? If it’s a UX challenge I wondering if it could be a standard feature for example on a Solidonsafe app approach as part of a package including safedrive, git, dweb ii. Who has the technical expertise to dev this functionality?

Agree with your good stepping stone comment to some of the more ambitious things such as “following files around the web and charging for added value” (key process starting words to begin to underpin how an autonomous AI/continuously learning enhanced safenetwork could work?). So many thanks for your insights.

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Sounds like an interesting project you’re working on. Not 100% sure I can picture how it works, but it sounds like a triage system essentially?

Who would own the data, and who would be the clients? I’m guessing that patients would own their data and a health authority of some sort would be the ones wanting to access it?

If I’m right in thinking this, would it be appropriate to be charging/paying for the information? Surely patients would be happy to give it up on the assumption that they trusted the authority they were giving it to, which in itself is an issue to solve in terms of verifying identities on both sides.

On the other hand there may then be situations where it was appropriate for a patient to monetise the data, such as for research, which is perhaps coming closer to the sort of scenario I was initially imagining. Again though, making sure an organisation is trusted in an offline way is pretty key, because there is no secure technical way (that I know of) that could stop a text file from being copied and further distributed by an untrustworthy actor.

The sort of thing I was imagining though was that in the SNApp there will be a file manager, and a data owner would be able to perhaps right click on a file or folder and be given the option to put it behind a paywall for some or all people wanting to access it. As I mentioned, there would have to be a variety of easily understandable pricing schemes, and also a variety of ways of making previews available, as well as Digital Rights Management software in place further down the line. There would then have to be a good UX for the person wanting to access the data, part of the difficulty there being also that it would have to integrate easily with any search or aggregator apps.

As I say, not quite sure I’ve fully understood your situation, but hope I’m not too far off track!

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