SAFE Network + database-driven websites

@whiteoutmashups:

And yeah only farmers get paid automatically by the network, everyone else can also get paid though by selling things, etc on their sites or whatever, which are free to put up online (within reason).

Incorrect! Content providers and app builders will be automatically rewarded by tagging public content/apps with a wallet address. They still have the option of using their own fee free payments model based on Safecoin micropayments, subscriptions etc coded by them into an application - but this is not necessary to get rewarded, only tagging with a wallet address.

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philip_rhoades, I think you’d be looking at a rewrite of at least the DB backend.

happybeing, once content/apps are tagged with a wallet address, how are payment amounts made to that address by the network determined? In other words, if I put up a site and tag it with my address, how much do I get paid?

@maidsaferocks

Why? Why should the MaidSafe network care what sort of data is stored on it? If there is software that runs on a server that is connected to both the conventional Internet and the MaidSafe network, then it seems to me that the server can decide where the data is stored? I need some pictures . .

Because data that is to be uploaded to the SAFE Network network is chunked, encrypted, and distributed across many nodes in different physical locations. Not exactly a conventional database environment.

@maidsaferocks

Of course, but that seems to need an extra layer between the DB and the data - that doesn’t seem like rewriting to me . .

A distributed database (key/value) store is a paradigm that we have gone over a lot. Perhaps will try and get together some links to show NOSQL type database creation etc. and how its done, it may be worth looking at implementations on dynamo/dynamite as this is amazon and netflix for instance. Add in security etc. and then you have SAFE. What is needed is a key/value programming guide for traditional database implementers. I am really sorry but time is my enemy right now, but for this purpose imagine SAFE is an efficient key/value database itself. In that way of thinking you also need to consider eventual consistency models as well (facebook / cassandra). Many of today’s super scaled systems (google bigtable etc. (see byzantine paxos implementation)) all use massively distributed key value stores and say its not possible with a database. See also the martin fowler video I posted here regarding differences.

I imagine SQL front ends can be written as attempted for hadoop type SQL imitation front ends. When we get a bit more clear form the current incredible workload I will try and write something up and create a typical example how to do this. There is info out there though, just nobody imagined a network doing this at planarity scale on a hostile network like the internet.

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Oh yeah, that’s right, farmers AND builders get paid (duh!) My bad. How could I forget that lol.

But idk about anyone besides them though.

@happybeing what do you mean?

Writers, music makers, etc also?

This is definitely the first time I’m hearing about that!

Sounds like an amazing technological achievement!

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@whiteoutmashups yes, content publishers: anyone who stores data and makes it public is a publisher (web pages, music, video, junk data) will be rewarded by the network based on access (GET requests)

@maidsaferocks I don’t know the payment amounts or how this is implemented, but guess it will be similar to farming, so based on GET requests the vault delivering the data gets a chance to farm, and the data accessed gets a chance to earn Safecoin.

BTW if you insert ‘@’ at the start of usernames the user gets notified of a mention: as in @maidsaferocks (versus maidsaferocks).

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@happybeing that’s genius!! Where can I read more about it?

@dirvine is that really how it works?

@happybeing Any plans for a requirement to pay in order to access SAFE Network? I would be in favor of it. I can imagine a micropayment for each GET request eliminating a lot of problems.

Of course, your getting info from a well informed hand old there in SAFE timescales (no offence @happybeing :smiley: )

On a GET request there is a mod arithmetic number (say X) so every X requests is a farm attempt. Every X * 10 requests is a dev farm request payment (the 10%) and every X * 20 a core dev payment (representing 10% and 5% respectively). Core payment wallet address will have to be the foundation for now and we need ot distribute those to committers unless we can automate it in some way, at least is open and auditable. App devs include their wallet address in GET requests for their app, the payment is sent to the address used in the GET.

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There’s no charge for accessing public data. @dirvine just summed it all up - I can’t add to that as even those details were new to me. Most of what I know is from things that David has posted here, just like the above.

Respect to you David. Hope your shoulder is OK, take care - after all, we need you! :slight_smile:

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Storj dev here. One big difference is that we work with blockchain tech (for file metadata, e.g. with factom, but not actual file data) and MaidSafe does not (their project was inaugurated before Bitcoin whitepaper even came out). MaidSafe Ltd is also aiming to build a new kind of internet (including a new implementation of RUDP), whereas we are currently focused on decentralized storage. Our latest whitepaper was just released so you could take a look at that to get a better understanding of our project. I’m sure the SAFE Network community here can answer all your questions about their technology. We’re all about cooperation though, so one day our front-end applications could talk to both our own backend tech and that of SAFE Network.

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Is there a doc for how to programmatically access and manipulate data on safenet?

See the documentation which includes tutorials, but be aware that there are changes coming to the API as we move to safeapp_nodejs. Keep an eye on developer updates (every Thursday evening, GMT) for these.

[ @frabrunelle I had trouble going from the main landing pages to SAFE API documentation. Maybe needs reviewing to help people find it starting from each of:

I couldn’t find the index until I went to https://safenetwork.org]

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Maybe this topic will help refresh your memory on the current plan. Need to read it all since the opening post is not entirely correct.

tl;dr in summary

FR - farming rate amount per GET.
1/FR - Gets per coin

  • Farmers are paid at FR (whole coins at the moment so after (ave) 1/FR GETs
  • APP developers are paid one coin after 10/FR GETs (10% of FR) on their APPs (data?)
  • PTP (maybe) are paid one coin after 10/FR GETs (10% of FR) on their content
  • Core Developers are paid one coin after 20/FR GETs
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I am sorry to resurrect this post, but with the coming test 17, and MD being delivered soon, I think some people like me need clarification on a few points:

Let’s say that I want to develop my own app/website on SAFE, and this app needs Mutable data because it is a user-generated content app, even though not very data intensive.

If the websites use common HTML, CSS and IMG folders, how am I supposed to create a dynamic website without SQL, AJAX or HTML5 ? Where is the database ? since it is not located on a server, does the data populated by a user, and shown on my site belong to the user ? is my site just the viewer of a massive decentralized key-value DB à la redis, and is it just here to organize and sort locally data that were contributed & stored to my website by users from all over the network ?

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I am not technical enough to tell you exactly what to do but I can direct you to the DOM API that is for dynamic websites. I bet down the road they’ll make it super easy to upload an existing dynamic site but for now in the demo app AFAIK you can upload a static site that has CSS etc. In one of the previous testnets I found a very good looking template that was beyond me as I know nothing of CSS or HTML and I uploaded it easy peasy to the network. I’ll find a link for the DOM API and link it in a moment

Link above is prolly best place to start, there are links to documentation as well

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thanks so much exactly what I needed.
So there is a container specifically for data, that users can taper with through my website interface.

But if the user edit data on my site it will cost him of his safe balance.I guess it might be possible to subsidy white listed users.

How many time are containers deduplicated across the network for redundancy?

Yeah okay then I have a question. How is this done? Say I upload a picture or poem. How do I tag that and get paid by the network?