SAFE Crossroads Podcast #10, Paige Peterson and the Seeds of SAFE

Thanks to @ioptio for her patience.

Also Sovryn Tech just posted a talk she made at Porcfest about mesh networking.

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Another nice one, on the Bill Hicks thing it was funny, but recently I had to do a keynote speech for the Scottish Cloud computing companies, in Edinburgh. I did ask who was in Marketing and suggest they did kill themselves, seriously please do! and the whole 9 yards. Lucky they took it well, I was not sure as there were many suits and me in my jeans and leather jacket , so it was very cheeky :smiley:

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Thanks for a nice podcast episode, @fergish! it is because of it that you’re seeing me now here, posting on the forum after registering a few minutes ago! So your podcast is definitely reaching out, even as far as Switzerland, where I currently live!

There is a lot of good material in this episode, and @ioptio made a few interesting comments on mesh networking here in Europe, and I’d like to follow up on those too, as they are very much relevant for SAFE too, since mesh networking can provide the access layer, and the SAFE project will make it secure by layering a smarter layer 2 to 4 on top of it.

Did not quite get why @ioptio brough in “capitalism” when she spoke about IP. To me, a staunch supporter of anarcho-capitalism, the issue is never capitalism, it’s rather the cronysm which comes from having too much state dealing with regulations and the free market.

In my view, capitalism is a good thing, unless the system is run by statists who are in cahoots with their friends entrepreneurs, those ones who like the bailout money when they need it, or regulation to stifle competition, when they need it…

Best regards from Switzerland!

Luca

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Pumped to get to listen to this on my way to work tomorrow. You put on an excellent production, are a great discussion moderator and a joy to listen to. Please keep them coming.

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Thanks so much for your feedback. I’m glad I’m having good effects here and there. :smile:

I think Paige is referring to the politicalized sense of the word, i.e., big corporations and banks, etc., using state power to rape and pillage, legally. In some circles, the term has been tainted in some circles (not unjustly) with the cronyism you speak of. I agree with her in the sense she was referring to, though I know what you’re saying as well. She is also an voluntaryist, I do believe, so we’re in good company regardless of the political past we’re all leaving behind.

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Yeah, I’d say so!! :joy: But I can see how one such as yourself could get away with it.

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Welcome to the forum! To respond to your point about capitalism, I guess you can say am an anti-capitalist libertarian socialist market anarchist ;). Thus, I do not see capitalism as synonymous to the freed market. Perhaps check out ‘Markets Not Capitalism’ for a peak into what I value and where I am coming from.

Regarding mesh networking, I’m really looking forward to sharing MaidSafe with the community at BattleMesh… had a great conversation with David today about where mesh networks fit into the SAFE network’s connection layer, crust and related topics. Do you work with any mesh communities in Europe?

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Just to get an idea, does the SAFE ecosystem fit your ideals for a freed markets? If not how would you improve on it?

I didn’t realize I wasn’t the only ideological mutt! Add humanitarian and environmentalist to that and you’ve got me.

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I don’t claim to know the exact form of an ideal freed market and don’t believe anyone who says they do. Markets are an emergent phenomenon and the more experiments and options with different structures the better… so ya, introducing a new ecosystem such as the one within SAFE is a great step but definitely not the answer… because there is no single answer.

I should say that I’m excited about the SAFE ecosystem’s focus on supporting open source development and content creation so that individuals can work independent from larger corporate structures. By reducing effectiveness and dependency on corporate structures, the ability for capital accumulation is also reduced creating a more equal playing field and thus satisfies my anti-capitalist values.

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I have to ask. I’m not a networking expert, but to make a global scaled internet that one would use over established ISPs purely for bandwidth and latency reasons, I believe it’s safe to say it’s going to take unimaginable amounts of labor and resources, a lot of said labor being done under a hot and humid sun. On top of that, the technology will inevitably improve, necessitating that the entire project will have to be done again, preferably with regular updates. Is it Paige’s idea that all of this will be done for free, or am I just grossly mistaken?

Also, I’ll probably catch flak for this, but I don’t think community controlled internet where the users know who is operating each node can co-exist with net neutrality. The moment the community figures out that bob does or IS something they don’t like, they can cut Bob off of internet access completely.

With SAFE running the community will not know what Bob is doing.

Meshnet technology isn’t that expensive. You can buy wifi devices capable of sending signals 10 or so miles for 60 bucks on Amazon. People just need to build it – But it is a chicken and egg type problem. If you build a new internet and nobody is on it, there is no point, but until you build it, nobody will be on it.

If you put up these networks and attached SAFE to them (You cannot access the normal internet, but you can use SAFE) it could help with the migration substantially. Giving access to the straight up internet has some liability risks because people know what is being downloaded to where. If you one of your downstream peers uses your internet connection to visit a government sting website, he would be traced to you… With SAFE there is no such risk, and thus it could be shared freely.

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As @jreighley points out, this is not a situation with the SAFE Network. I recommend some time with https://safenetwork.wiki to see why.

As far as mesh build-out, initially the network will operate on current structures, i.e., through ISPs or whatever other way people currently access the net. I really like the idea of setting up mesh interfaces that only allow SAFE traffic. That makes and incredible amount of sense, at least at first. Then it could be expanded to handle other, similar types of encrypted traffic.

Paige will likely respond for herself, but since you ask, I think she envisions that eventually it will be such that worldwide internet connection will be handled by all users as a community. It’s not “free” if your access is also a contribution; it’s cooperation. Cool vision and probably workable. In the meantime, I can see other solutions needing to be worked with to transition from here to there. I think that putting up a mesh router to handle SAFE traffic, and then being rewarded in safecoin (or safemeshcoin?) to incentivize the build-out makes sense. We’ll see.

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With the internet neutrality thing, I’m talking about the actual physical neighborhood that bob is in saying that bob is X, he controls Y node, so do not let Y node connect to the internet. If maidsafe can prevent this level of attack, then by definition it is not community controlled, at least not fully community controlled, and thus my point was not meant to apply to it.

As for my point on developing mesh networks, the SAFE network is of course incentivized, so the moment SAFE comes into the picture, we’re talking about something completely different than what I meant to comment on.

There should be little, if any, way to determine, from Bob’s traffic, that he is connected to the SAFE Network. It’s encrypted, but then so are most wifi connections these days.

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How a meshnet in a neighborhood would work is separate from how SAFE would work. But in theory if your neighborhood was well served by a community meshnet you could connect via Bob, Alice or Jane, and if Bob went offline or decided not to play nice anymore you would just use another node.

You would be able to connect to SAFE through any node without worrying about them doing any evil spying or the like because you send nothing to SAFE that is useful, and SAFE doesn’t send anything back that is useful to anyone but you.