Safe Chat — Friday 26th February, 9PM GMT

This will be very valuable if it can happen, the other “new internet” protocols (Noia a.k.a. Syntropy) work hard for this:

We successfully implemented the first official Syntropy Stack integration with Elrond , enabling their validators to use Syntropy technology to run secure, performance-optimized node infrastructure.

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use 3 (backquote) then the text followed by another 3

eg

I’m imagining it looking like this.

|          |          |          |          |          |          |
\         /\         /\         /\         /\         /\         /
 |                   ||                    ||                    |
  \                 / \                   / \                   /
   |                             |                              |
    \                           / \                            /
     |                                                        |
     |                                                        |
      \                                                      /
        \                                                  / 
          \                                              /

So its
```
text
```

Well I hope we keep it on private data.
But not on public data

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Thanks @neo that’s exactly what it looked like. Is this just regular markup? I need to learn markup fully, I just know little tid bits from the forum.

Some is and some isn’t

See this for more An Unofficial Discourse User Reference Guide - TechForum Site and Post Help - Electronic Component and Engineering Solution Forum - TechForum │ Digi-Key

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For what reason though? I mean if you throw away the data map the data is junk, but still there, so follows the grow type structure of data.
[edit, not trying to pick Nigel, just trying to understand from your perspective.]

Wee followup on something a briefly mentioned during the unrecorded chat on Friday, hope it’s useful…

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I only know pieces of the story but I believe Cardano started researching in 2014 and in 2017 apparently a lot of Japanese investors were very upset and anxious because they were nowhere near launch and it was clearly a speculative bull market and they weren’t happy about missing out. Charles Hoskinson admits to taking a long time. Tezos is another that had a very long conception, testing, and release time.

I think what all these projects share is a level of novelty that requires more research, longevity to be built to last (built from fundamentals and upgradable) than what a typical out of the box blockchain would.

The network needs to be finished to iterate. It’s close but it’s not quite there yet. Gives more time for proper planning though and what everyone is doing is better than ever. The safe chats are awesome and a lot of good data shared by you and insights/perspective shared by others. I’ll join one soon for sure.

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I’m just listening to the meeting recording and one of the things I picked up on is how we need to coordinate efforts. Not specifically to marketing, but actually on how we work as a dev community too.

There has been discussion about how to get involved, how it is hard to contributes to core libs, etc. However, outside of those - what apps we need and how they interpolate - is really key. @JimCollinson mentioned e-commerce for example. As a dev, I have an idea of want to deliver, what techniques to use, etc, but the user experience side is critical to this. Ensuring that community devs have access to Jim’s experience and input must surely be critical to seeding a wider app ecosystem, beyond what the Maidsafe team can deliver internally.

Obviously, @JimCollinson may be busy enough without trying to define how apps in the wider space may function, but I think it will be key to bring things together. Some of this may be user flows, but other elements may be how the apps communicate and how they can share formats (messages, documents, etc).

That’s not to say folks can’t (or shouldn’t) go their own way in terms of dev, but the more the apps pull together and work well as a whole, the more users will benefit. This will bring more value to users. To use a classic example, Apple has always done well at this side. They have tried to make the user experience between apps consistent in a way other platforms have struggled in the past (e.g. Linux).

Can we have a core message format, which can be flexible enough to do what email, twitter, IM and news feeds can use? Do we need separate apps? Can we just have a standard library and different apps which use it to make these separate apps simple to develop?

While some of this may fall into more of a software architecture style role, but I think understanding what needs to be achieved - over how it is achieved - is very much user experience.

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We need to define some nice “todo” or needed example apps and show what API would be used there etc. I am sure we will when we get the CLI version out. I am hoping in the next short few weeks. It’s needed.

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What is Betanet?

Many crypto projects have “betanets” that often refer to pretty different things, so it’s worth explaining what it means for Radix.

The Radix betanet is a temporary test network, pure and simple. It is intended to provide a final, large-scale stress test of the protocol that will be offered to our community as the basis of the first version of the Radix public network (called Olympia).

Our betanet is not the beginning of the official public Radix ledger or the official XRD token – that’s the Olympia mainnet. Unlike mainnet, the Radix team will have ultimate control of the betanet network (described more below), and we will be shutting it down shortly before the release of Olympia. That means that all assets stored on betanet will vanish. In other words, all tokens and transactions on betanet are just playing with “funny money” and nothing will be carried over to the main network (where everything will be forever immutable).

Betanet is, however, enormously important to make sure that everything is working smoothly, from the low-level consensus and network layers, up through the node-running experience, and to the Radix wallet. So we will be offering up betanet versions of most of the things we plan to deliver for mainnet, including:

  • Beta Olympia desktop wallet, for storing, transacting, and staking tokens.
  • Beta Olympia explorer website, which lets you view network conditions and see details about addresses and transactions.
  • Beta Olympia full node/validator node software and CLI (command line interface), offered both as a docker image and a pre-built JAR.
  • A faucet website which will distribute free tokens (betanet only).

Testing how all of this stuff works together under real world conditions on a functional, global network means we need your help.

I found this on their twitter feed.

They go on to break down what you can do in beta net, and how you can help. Couldn’t we break down our testnets releases as Radix is doing. They don’t have a working network either. These stepped announcements communicate to the world progress is being made. Whether it really is or not happening on Radix is another matter.

In the case of Safe Network you can already download software and install it. Yes it is limited but it still could serve as a way of communicating to the world that more of the problems have been solved. The upcoming testnet will be another one of these steps that needs to be communicated. In order that the team not be distracted and maidsafe stays at the back of it, it seems like there needs to be an official role to handle this part of the project. We as a community could raise funds to cover the costs. This would allow access to the project in a limited but official way, the building of media relations, and partnerships with other crypto projects. Perhaps even working on DEX, CEX, and Wrapped solutions. Testnet is close which means Fleming is approaching.

If Fleming launches in the woods and there is nobody to hear it launch did it launch? :smile: If Fleming is on its way at what point do we make sure we have the public side of launch covered so the world knows it is coming?

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Absobloodlyexactly. So much this.

This is why we cannot lose sight of either side of the equation; and why I heartily agree with your point on the other thread of the way apps and data can be shared and combined is the killer app.

This needs to be fostered from both sides of the equation, with the network in the middle. One side informs the other.

As an example; the e-commerce thing. If we are purely thinking about it from a dev only point of view, just giving them the raw platform of the network, then we may end up with all these siloed experiences; each website as its own app, with it’s own shopping cart, and checkout process; kinda transplanting what we have on the clearnet. Still better because data will be more secure, and the token built in etc… but we’d miss out on so much!

But if we look at it through the eyes of people using the network, and with the blank canvas, and power of linked data… then things could look very different. I could visit any number of sites, and drop products into my network wide shopping cart as I go… then when I’m ready to check out—boom—payment sent to 30 different retailers all in one go. And I can be informed about any changes to inventory, or shipping etc, all in one place… not visiting all those different sites to keep up with it all.

And maybe I want to quickly tweak my shipping address a little later… again it’s just done in one place; and all of those retailers that need to know it get it automatically—and they don’t need to lift a finger either.

And what does it mean for devs in this case? Maybe it’s as simple as including a line of code in HTML, or a set of tags on a web page next to a product. It could really be that simple to start selling your wares on the network.

Or perhaps including/exposing a common messaging module to an app, which offloads all of that burden effectively to the network ecosystem: the user gets to choose the app or interface component that they prefer to handle IMs at a network level; but the dev gets the benefit of being able to easily roll that additional functionality into their app. All the while being able to offload most, if not all, of the headaches of dealing with personal data, and a lot of security!

This is why this whole endeavour is way more than just “what if we had a decentralised dropbox?” or “all we need is for that popular website to move onto Safe”. It’s more than just, have what you already have, but with more security, or, do the bitcoin thing, but with no transaction fees.

It’s a paradigm shift. It really is a way to build a new internet — people first.

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I have sold things on the internet in the past with a company. I have sold goods all over Europe. Physical things.

What you describe no country will allow. One or two small companies to sell against cryptocurrency may pass between the drops, but if it starts to happen en masse all companies will be subject to serious regulations and most likely banned.

There are serious obstacles for a company to sell against cryptocurrency directly at the moment. Selling real items for anonymous cryptocurrency - no legitimate business will take the risk. This is a fantasy at this stage. Maybe in 20 years it will be possible, but at the moment it is not.

I don’t agree with that at all. Even the card processors (mastercard) and PayPal are getting in on the act.

Moreover, you don’t have to use safe network tokens for payment. PayPal, for example, can easily arrange out of band payments, where they request a payment for an invoice. That part can be done over clear net, if retailers aren’t ready for cryptocurrency.

Tbh though, the tide is shifting. Tesla taking bitcoin, payment processors accepting bitcoin, more people owning cryptocurrency, all points in the right direction.

Finally, this is just one aspect. There are so many ways data can be communicated in common formats, not just shopping. The clear net is full of unnecessary and obstructive walled gardens that have no use case on safe network. Being able to exchange and mix this data will be a great user experience and it will be attractive.

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Physical is harder, but digital is easier. Even hardware is getting there now. Goods posted are subject to many issues in this space, but it is all moving and we should be in front IMO.

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The experience I’m describing has very little to do with the impact trade laws; it’s to do with improving customer experience even in the light of that.

But a few points:

  • There are no borders on the Internet
  • Digital goods alone account for a trillion USD in sales every year, and expand six times as fast as physical sales.
  • Cross border trade laws vary from country to country
  • It is up to each individual business tom comply with the law of their jurisdiction; and there is no reason why the Safe Network could facilitate this: e.g. a flag to reject purchases anonymously, or shipping to certain locations etc.
  • There are already businesses that accept crypto currency
  • There are entire businesses that trade in utility tokens in a closed system, right now.
  • There is nothing to say we cannot also facilitate regular fiat payments, in a compliant way, but provide an amazing, convenient, network wide shopping experience, that is more secure, and puts people in charge of their own data.
  • We are building the future. Let’s not stay stuck in the mindset of the present, just because it’s hard.
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Yes, I feel it frustrating when folks just think of it as distributed storage. It’s such a small, dull, part of the whole vision. Useful, yes… but nowhere near the potential.

The challenge seems to be how to get the message across. Maybe seeing will be believing ultimately, but your ecommerce video last year (I think - could be older?) was inspiring too. It’s hard to visualise such paradigm shifts, let alone explain them in a way others ingest.

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I’d also like to mention how hard it can be for people with the existing system of gate keepers.

I was once very nearly bankrupted by a payment provider when they decided I must have been committing some kind of fraud when we launched a very successful new digital/physical mixed product. They froze my account, and were about to refund all my customers (for a product that I’d already shipped!) and I had to spend days talking them down.

If it had just been between me and the customers, and then the accounts I filed every year to the tax man, all would have been well. But the payment provider, that has inserted themselves into the transaction, very nearly put me under. It was incredibly stressful; and I’ve always wondered how common an experience that is for small businesses.

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Yeah, that was a talk I did a year or two ago… I’m actually just re-recording it for YouTube at the moment. Even just talking it through like that, sharing the vision; and doing so repeatedly, I think is good, so I’m trying to set myself a wee schedule to do it regularly. Hopefully others can join me! << nudge nudge >>

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Just to touch back on developer motivations from the chat (just about finished listening to it now).

I think devs don’t necessarily need to be assured there are users to be motivated. Instead, I think they need to be assured that the platform will function and the APIs will remain static. If those are present, the users will be attracted to try their app (if it sounds good!).

Developers often like to try new tech, as it is exciting. Using Rust, with WASM, on a cool distributed Safe Network will appeal. If it is easy for users to run the app too, then the boundary to use will be small too.

IMO, this is why there are two critical points for developer involvement:

  1. The core tech needs to be proven, with APIs that can be integrated with. The test net should address this. If they can extrapolate a path from test net to production net, that is fine, but the core functionality is critical.
  2. Devs will create great apps if they are aware of the larger vision and can contribute towards it. I think this can be considered as marketing a better user experience than the clear net. Maybe that is a cool overlap between devs and early users too - the vision of a better network, with great apps, working seamlessly and securely.
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I can’t speak for others, but I’m certainly keen to start blogging about this stuff. I’ve touched on distributed networks in general in the past, but would like to home in on Safe Network. I’m out of contract in April and I want to spend some time training (Rust and WASM, with Safe Network, primarily), but also blogging about this experience. I can’t wait to have the free time! :slight_smile:

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