SAFE cafe #9 Sunday 7pm BST: Privacy, Network99 progress & ETTD

The guy’s allowed to express his own opinions, but not when representing/promoting or in any way associating himself with Maidsafe in my view - it is totally counter productive. I’ve asked many times what distinguishes his posts from spam, or himself from a middleman (because he was railing against middlemen in his maidsafe related blog - still no satisfactory answer.
By the way what happened with the Keiser report thing? I suggested it on the forum in July and you yourself (Nick) said we were better keeping powder dry, then a couple of weeks later he’s booked you on the show with no acknowledgement or statement whatsoever on this forum?
Personally I’d recommend stopping him posting/spamming on the forum, we really don’t need this kind of crap being associated with such an important project - especially as he seems to go his own way, do what he wants and has no interest in the community or forum or popular consensus except to promote his own self serving interests.
If that’s construed as a personal attack, GOOD…IT WAS MEANT AS SUCH.
Ban Hammer coming…lol

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Not sure what you mean Al, can please be more specific? There are multiple threads on the forum relating to the Max Keiser Interview.

Sorry it was the Edward Snowden thread I posted on and it was this thread that you expressed you thought it best to keep powder dry in regard to attracting that kind of publicity . The other threads relating to Keiser were after you were booked on I believe. When I queried with DIrvine how this came about, he replied that DLasoff had arranged it. This annoyed me because a) it appeared to be contrary to the wishes of the team and b), because it was not discussed on the forum first. C) because DLasoff doesn’t discuss on the forum, other than to promote his various schemes.
The guy’s also had plenty of time to respond to legitimate community concerns, thereby displaying a certain disregard…

He’s also made another handle btw @Coffee

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No problem, thanks for explaining. I wouldn’t be too harsh with regard to the Max Keiser interview, it was done with the right intentions and was of benefit to the SAFE technology and the community. His political views are clearly a different matter.

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Yes, fair enough

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I also thought that Max Keiser would be good exposure :slight_smile:

Chris Foster @chris_foster · Jul 13
@maxkeiser likes to talk about breaking #bitcoin startups but has missed the big daddy @maidsafe

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As mod: I don’t see this as part of my role as moderator. I think mods are tasked with doing as little intervention as needed to ensure open and productive discussion is possible, rather than facilitating or guiding it. We are here to respond to concerns and to help the community when it is felt that intervention is needed. If people want to comment on @chrisfostertv’s point or my response, let’s spin off a topic for that.

As me, a community member, I chose not to come in here because I was interested to see @dllasoff response. He hasn’t responded, and as @ioptio points out has created another handle to use for posting about Safe Cafe. This suggests to me that he’s trying to keep his political persona and views separate from his Safe Cafe because he knows it is likely to be shunned by people here if he doesn’t. Personally I don’t like that because it feels dishonest towards anyone who missed this, although I also can’t justify posting information discovered off-site about someone unless it is relevant to Project SAFE, which I don’t think this information was. I also understand why the poster would feel it important to share. If anyone went through all the stuff I’ve posted online in my life I’m sure there are things that I’d be embarrassed to see turning up here, or positions I’ve taken that others strongly disagree with (I know that because its happened here too! :-)).

As a community I think we can legitimately regulate behaviour and we can be open about our views on other people’s views, and we can legitimately do research and if we find it relevant to the project it is fair enough to share it. Some political positions might be relevant to report here - someone found defending government surveillance for example - but beyond something like that I don’t think we should get into what political views are acceptable to hold within the community unless there’s good reason to see them as relevant to Project SAFE.

PS In fact @dllasoff has at least three handles here because he also has @dl99pr

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Well said, part of freedom is the freedom to speak and have differing views on some issues. I personally have different views from some as I am sure folk will appreciate. I sometimes say them, I am rubbish at hiding stuff, it’s not my nature. It’s also good to get corrected and learn. I also realise some people may have views others or me will find questionable and I think this is part of life. As we move along and educate then I feel we need to accept views and if we feel repulsed, say so.

Well said @happybeing , I hope this place has differing views and I hope SAFE has them to, I also hope we do not hound people for those views but instead engage and debate with facts and empathy. Agree on the relevance to SAFE in this place though.

For this forum I completely think you mods have it right and allow a lot of leeway which says a lot about you as a team. It must be hard to allow personally repulsive views, but important to be able to. Thanks mods I think you do a great job and I hope you continue to.

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Yes absolutely, everyone can express their views it’s free speech - and everyone can use their own free speech to criticise and ridicule those views too by the same measure.
The only issues I had were that by advertising his wares on here, which include blogs and links with these extreme views, Maidsafe could in a way be seen to be vicariously partly responsible for expounding/spreading them - its the association with Maidsafe/his views that the distance needs to be kept - not the forum/his views - it affects reputation - therefore it is an issue.
I also took issue with a hypocritical blog post railing against middlemen. I just feel this needs clarifying, I would never stifle anybody’s free speech.
To be honest, the most informative and alarming thing I have taken from this situation is that DLasoff does not openly express his views on the forum. This displays that he either cannot defend them or does not think it economically expedient to do so. If you display one face to one person and another to another, then this highlights certain character traits, I think. It certainly demonstrates that whatever a person says does not necessarily correspond with what he thinks. I would be more comfortable with dealing with an open person…whatever his views.

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I believe David Lasoff also deleted his account on Twitter, or is it just me who can’t see his account anymore ?

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David vanished.
We were working on network99 with @we_advance and @optictopic.
I’ve known him from the work that we shared, the SAFEcafe and the hangouts we did, for that he was an amazing person.
I did not knew about his political views and how he was expressing them, as we never spoke of that.
I believe in freedom of speech and I feel sad if he left because of that, tho no one know why he left…

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I thought David seemed like a super nice guy, and was uber enthusiastic about maidsafe which was kinda contagious and actually super positive.

I guess some of the realities behind those sentiments were pretty dark/angry but I can see why someone living in Israel their whole lives (where this stuff really matters and is not just words on a newspaper) might think like that. I cannot guarantee that if I had spent my whole life in Israel that I wouldn’t have the same views, just as I can’t guarantee I wouldn’t have become a Nazi if I happened to grow up in the wrong environment. Forgiveness, understanding, love and all that jazz is the best path I reckon (the older I get, the more hippy I become it seems!!:slight_smile:

Ironically I think/hope that the sort of ‘faulty thinking’ expressed in David’s article might be diminished in the population at large (to at least some small degree) with the un-censorable, crowdsourced news and information sharing that maidsafe promises.

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Yes, this type of thinking which leads to these types of views could well be diminished by people expressing their freedom of speech and feeling able to do so: Otherwise, how do we help combat them (with argument) if they are not out there in the open to be demolished by reason in public. This is how bad ideas are defeated and the reasons why they are bad are spread amongst those susceptible to adopt these bad ideas in the first place - good memes killing bad ones.
I’m sure many of the pawns in the Gaza strip also have similar but opposite views to DLasoff too…
The whole Israel/Palestine issue is a massively complex issue and goes beyond land rights issues - the fact that all 3 of the major Abrahamic religions have claims on the area, all expecting various prophets to return or climb out of wells etc is relevant.
From Wikipaedia:

George W. Bush[edit]
In 2007, the former French president, Jacques Chirac said that in the prelude to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, the US president George W. Bush told the French president that “Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East.”[58] The French presidency consulted Prof. Thomas Römer, of the Faculty of Theology and Religious Studies of the University of Lausanne (Switzerland), to understand Bush’s reference.[59][60][61]

Yes reminds me of the quote from MLK

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

There is gonna be a ton of this kind of thing and we as a community need to be strong brave and forgiving and spread education and show differing opinions. When we are attacked, and we will be, then this is the kind of thing that will be used. Not saying this is an attack, but I think it will be similar. I hope David can reconcile this and move on and help make the world a better more fair place. As I keep saying, education and access to non propaganda information is a great goal, we will make it happen, but we’re gonna have to be mentally very tough to make it so.

As far as I see this is a community with that strength and certainly the ability to debate, which is superb.

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I believe lasloff is a victim of his own environment. As we all are. Even though i strongly disagree with his views, i still respect his right to have free speech. If thats his political position then all we can do is hope that his opinion can be swayed somewhat. However, I believe the safe community should not show any predjudice against people who have particular political views or opinions. We are building a community based eco system that will cater to everyone. The community could help to educate the users with providing evidence based factual data. The safe network is also the ideal technology to conduct transparent peer reviewed information studies on controversal topics. Propaganda is everywhere online which will effect views from all of us to some extent whether we realise it or not. The Safe network can provide a more open minded approach to tackling the quest for the truth. The safe community is going to be a mixed bag and the sooner we put our political differences a side, the better. Lasloff views are strongly put to say the least, but it would be interesting to hear a reply so he can publically defend himself. But due to the sensitivity of the subject i wouldn’t be surprised if he chose not to.

There’s also freedom of association and people can choose what apps they support or people they hang around with according to their own political views or ethics. I don’t personally see things like incitement to hatred for example as a legitimate political viewpoint, nor would I want to donate 1% of anything towards supporting the spreading of such ideas.
It is true that propaganda exists everywhere online and community members thrash out their various ideas and discuss on this forum - its part of becoming part of the community, by engaging with it,rather than just promoting/advertising your own particular project. As you say it would have been interesting to hear a reply, but none has been forthcoming and people are left to make their own minds up as to why that might be. Suggesting this may be because of the “sensitivity” of the subject, or that a person has been lead astray by “propaganda” ring hollow to me and suggest a contriteness that has not been displayed. As you say these are his views and others have theirs and I don’t see any prejudice involved here whatsoever - it is a matter of Freedom of Association. :smiley:
Edit:

I would just add that I totally disagree with the politics of many people on this forum, but that would definitely in no way preclude me using their apps or working with them. I also disagree with many of my friends politics, but this wouldn’t impinge on our friendship or stop me associating with them – I see this situation as completely different. Hitler was also a “product of his Environment” and I think there is a massive irony here too and inversion of reality when cautioning others against “prejudice”.

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Just for the record i am not trying to defend him in any way. Also, i am not here to caution anyone about anything nor do i think anyone has been prejudice. After re reading, I can see i should have phrased my comment alot better. Thats my fault for staying up too late reading the safe network forum.

I actually would encourage everyone that disagrees to challenge him and everyone who agrees to defend him. I believe in freedom of speech first and foremost. Weather their right or wrong, people will say and think what they want. I am only 26 so my views have changed quite a bit over the the last ten years and will continue to do so. Take me as an example that some people can sadly get lead a stray by propaganda at times. So i guess what i was trying to say was, i believe that his views potentially could change and we should welcome an open minded debate. I think it’s really great that people have picked up on it and are calling him out. I am just as horrified as everyone else at what he wrote.

My friends and family have relatively similar views as me, which can make life quite boring because i rarely get the chance to debate on sensitive topics. Call me old fashioned but i personally wouldn’t associate myself with someone who maintains views that i strongly disagree with, even though i would thoroughly enjoy having a debate with them. A lot of people i hang around with will avoid even talking about sensitive topics in general.

Your right, I was wrong to describe his view as political. But i think you’ll agree there are political aspects that play a huge influential role in this war and having a public debate is always the best way forward! Even tho he blogged about it, he has shyed away from a response on here. This thread is unsurprisingly one sided and its a real shame he chose not to comment. Interesting that nobody on here has supported his view either. I would love to ask him some challenging questions. I guess he is trying his best to avoid digging an even deeper hole for himself. If i was him i wouldn’t be able to resist sending a reply but i guess were all different.

Not sure i understand your point on hitler and the massive irony bit. If your point even makes sense, its not very clear what you mean by that Can you please elaborate further.

I would like to make it absolutely clear that I fully denounce and do not support David Lasoff’s views. In addition, David has not been associated with me or n99 since Sept 2014

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Thank you for this clarity. It would be a shame if someone mistakenly associated your podcast or the N99 project as somehow aligned with David’s views.

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