Ridding the World of Corporations

Can millions of small(12-100 people) flat (no: stockholders-board members-executives-managers- supervisors) highly automated (MaidSafenet/coin – Demonsaw- iCEO -Loomio- 2Chan/4chan style decision system sans tripcodes) cooperatives

rid the world of

corporations?

Let me note about chan style decision systems- these would be moderator free. If someone self referenced or made allusion to themselves or identity or that of others, other group members could silently vote (anonymously) and when it reached an invisible threshold the post would disappear and the person would be blocked (silently) and anonymously from further participate in that thread. No one would know who it was, very gentle process.

No.

Isn’t that the topic of 95% of your posts? You expect a different discussion this time? From the post you made on the same topic 5 days ago?

It’s been discussed to no end. Time will tell. What happens when you want to hire your 101th employee? Split the co-op – Wait! We need 95 people to maintain operations.

Also many decisions are best made by people who have time to study an issue in great depth. it is not efficient to have a flat organization make these decisions because studying the difference in specifications between machine A and machine B is not the best use of time of everybody. It is the best use of time for the engineer who knows exactly what needs to be accomplished and what the specs are for the items being produced and what the market demand is…

A wise “flat” organization is going to delegate responsibilities and then they will not be quite flat anymore – over time more and more gets delegated not because of some evil conspiracy from “the man” but because it is the optimum way for the organization to meet it’s goals.

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Flat enough. It not just the choice between machine A and B but between person A and B and not just a choice of talent. Person A may be the best the there is but have no interest or energy to pursue the arear or have some other block.

Specialization occurs because of our strengths and inclinations and even if these did not vary from person to person (they do and its part of why we need each other) we would still need each other. Many minor decisions will be made with autonomy in mind. But certain types of important decisions will be made with greater participation but in a fluid, inclusive, persistent and dynamic way that can be revisited as often as need be.

Where did you learn why specialization occurs?

You might want to find a better teacher. You say all kinds of things like they are facts, but from what I can tell you pull them out of thin air.

Specialization occurs because things are very complicated, and it takes a ton of study to know how a Surface mount machine ought to work. Or a corporate firewall, or Payroll laws that change every week because of court decisions. 10 people don’t come to a righter answer on these kind of things than one guy who knows what he is doing. 9 women cannot hatch a baby in a month.

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Again academia works on the collegiate model.

No it doesn’t

Academics are totally subsidized by the government.

Prices keep going up and up and up to the point that absolutely nobody can afford them. Because everyone is spending somebody else’s money.

Every college I have seen has a president who sets the budgets, a board that oversees those budgets. Deans that hire and tenure faculty. Not flat at all. Why? Because it is the most efficient way to organize things.

If a Flat organization is such a good idea, and heirachy only exists because of greedy capitalists, Why do you figure Non-profits organize that way too?

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No academia private and public uses the collegiate model because that is what the smartest people have long demanded. And academia worked fine in prior decades prior to its corruption by money.
In many academic depts the dean is a rotated through position as is the chair. They hire as a group, that is the way it works.

You sending your kids you Yale? 63,250 per year.

Yah, that is efficient and not at all greedy.

Talk about perpetuating the class system.

Rotation through corporate offices is not at all uncommon either. In order to move up the ladder, people have to have a good understanding of all of the departments and how they interact with one another – It is probably fairly unlikely for somebody to be promoted to Sr Management level without having rotated through running a few departments first… It isn’t like having a oversight job is all powerful and grand. Lots of people move in and out of management… In many companies it is much better and more lucrative to be a producer than an overseer.

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Corporation and its end point is about nepotism. Its about channeling other people’s money and power, abstracting it away from them. The competition bit is a romantic excuse… Corporations don’t compete once the reach the oligopoly stage. No they collude and that is what the endless mergers are about, collusion to screw the public. Its all a lie, if for a time it wasn’t it is now.

Really?

Source?

I see a ton more nepotism in Co-ops. FAR FAR more.

But I actually work with these things. Not just pontificate about them.

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Look at the little frat boys and sorority chicks that run the Fortune 1000 shake down. Just going through Nomi Prins All the President’s Bankers totally disgusting amounts of neopotism. And by the time you get to David Rockefeller in that dynasty its all about banking. J. D.'s game when you think about it was alway a bank trick. He was his own bank.

Family businesses are called family businesses for a reason.

Co-ops are usually what comes out of family businesses getting too big and combining…

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We don’t need unions or management any more. We don’t need offic buildings either. Whole thing might run mainly out of a cell phones. Don’t need as much actual face to face. This is the way stuff is going. When people describe corporations they talk about long supply chains. But it might be better to think of ridgidity. Red coats with muskets marching in straight lines against American cooperative militias, cooperatives are rightly guerilla, decentralized like Apache. The corpratists are yesterday’s Tory monarchists.

People text at work all the time, the do it while driving so compelling is this cellular model. Its encroaching.

Wrong.

Nobody works without being managed. Nobody knows enough to work alone. Communication needs to flow. The communication needs to be complete. It needs to be correct. Product needs to flow. It needs to be the right product. If you fail to do what you are told to do it doesn’t matter what business you are in, you are going to be managed or your company is going to cease to be solvent.

Pipe dreams, Warren, Pipe dreams.

An Uber driver may be “Self managed” but he must do what he is told to do in the way he is told to do it or he will cease to be an Uber driver. Background checks, Safety inspections, licensing requirements… That is management. Somebody from above laid out the rules.

Same worthless conversation Just like I predicted.

Once again I give you specific real world truth after specific real world truth and you fail to address any of them and spout out more unsourced leftist propaganda. Failing to address reality at all…

What you believe simply isn’t so… Get a job. Get some experience. Change things from the inside, if you feel the need, but you look absolutely ignorant when you cannot suggest any answers that have an ounce of bearing to reality…

You are wasting everyones time with post after post after post with the same tired old arguements… Go revive an old thread that everyone is already used to ignoring.

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You think like a slave, you might want to check yourself. I’ve given enough concrete counter examples, including the silicon copperatives, certain groups at IBM, iCEO, juries, academia back hundreds of years, Apaches, American Gurillas, A.A., Craig’s list, Wikipaedia, early Skype,and I might add 4chan in prior years when people were using it in more secure ways to get some potent things done eventhough the couldn’t pick each other out of a line up. If you can’t identify someone in anyway (4chan example in historical context) you cant play stupid up down games.

You seem to be self taught which is honorable. But seem to be missing the most basic and important stuff the university would have taught you. Bill Gates came from a family of professors and professionals but even he went back.

You are insulting

I do not think like a slave. I have run my own business. Have you? Does a slave do that?

You refused to think or interact with any of the realities I talk about. Those are not “orders from above” They are mathematical truths. You are a slave to your textbook and are ignorant about the real world. Over and over and over again. You fail to dialog… You just regurgitate the same stuff over and over again and fail to address the idea I bring up. Change the topic every time You don’t want to interact…

I have a university education. You also make assumption after assumption about me and all of those are wrong…

You have never answered any of my questions about your background and experience. I work with these things everyday… The way you portray them is not at all accurate and shows that you do not.

Change the topic again. That’s what you do every time you are confronted with stuff you don’t want to answer.

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I forgot to reiterate the SAFE forum example as well above. But let me also state, because we’ve had this example before, that Christ very much was a Welfare King, fought the bankers of his time over debt enslavement and was crucified for it. The Saducees and Pharisees of his time are the Republican-Conservative-Libertarian-Teaparties of today. Abraham and his 73 relatives that became the Jews after rougly four hundred years of oppression and slavery in Egypt were a cooperative. The 12 apostles were a cooperative that transformed Rome. Was Peter really a strong leader of the sheep? Christ and Paul were soon gone. Christ hated corporatism and was contantly fighting against it and its uselessness and perversion. The bit about let Cesar have what is Cesar’s was essentially him saying let the corporations keep their useless money and its strings. Later on in the Protestant Reformation came another attempt to chop out abhorant hierarchy. In Christianity there is only one authority and it resides in each our hearts. The tribes of Israel were 12-13 loose confederates and kingless. The Father basically: said no kings ever! They had trouble following the rule, but today we even have women’s ordination. To accept a king was literally the rejection of God, but we still see that crap celebrated with absolute nonsense nonsense like the English Monarchy.

There is a book you need to read “The Starfish and the Spider, the Unstoppable Power of Leaderless Organizations.”

If any of the books you recommend where worth a lick of salt, you could use them to answer my questions about the real world.

Like I have told you time and time again, I have worked on self directed work teams and the like. From what you spout, there is zero indication you ever have. It is all some future tense fantasy.

I have a degree in operations management and I am a contrarian to most of the things I have been taught… Because the textbooks are “fad of the day” and the real world works how it works. Spreadsheets beat textbooks most every time.

So when you cite whatever book recognize that it is the flavor of the month for whatever month… Because that is what all of them turn out to be. A flash in the pan that some people try, a few good ideas are adopted, then on to the next fad…

Everything always returns to what works most efficiently however, because the market doesn’t tolerate much waste in most industries.

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Not a flash in the pan book. Don’t be an example of an expert that can’t learn.

I have seen tons and tons of fads. I have read tons of “Revolutionary” books.

That which works sticks, that which doesn’t doesn’t.

Nothing you suggest is very new. It’s all been tried, and there are a few places where it works. There are scales where it works. There are also places and scales where it is totally proposterous.

I have worked in those environments before. I know my stuff. I have lived it. I have a degree in it and I am smart enough to know that most of the degree is total BS…

There is no such thing as a one size fits all “Business system”

Don’t be afraid to try it on your own if you are so smart. But don’t go telling everyone else how they ought to run their business. Because their business is truly none of your business.

And you demonstrate that strongly by your failure to address any real world situations with anything more than citing some book. Show me the math if you are so smart. The math is simple 9 women will not be able to hatch a baby in one month. That’s not how it works. That’s not how management decisions work either. Deciding to buy machine A or machine B is a 9 month process with one or two very smart people examining every detail, every cost, every benefit, every risk. The person who has done that study leads. And he should lead. Having 10 people do that study wastes 9 times the man hours.

That’s just math. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

Now is the part where you change the topic and refuse to show me how 90 months of work is going reach a better outcome than 9 months work… Because you cannot argue that point with any realistic justification.

Power comes from creating products and services. Power does not come from thinking about how to do it. That is where bankruptcy comes from.

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