Recent questions about SAFE's societal implications

I’ve read a provocative question, and went through it’s closed topics trying to reply to it, but they seem to be old so I’m making a new topic here. Here’s the question:

Continuing the old discussion topics

I’ll take a swing at this. There is some good material to read on these forums as well, but you took the time to ask this time it so I think the community should take the time to answer again.

It is unbalanced to only consider one possibility of technology. MaidSafe’s SAFE Network allows security for everyone, which will affect good and bad people, just as large scale surveillance of today affects both good and bad people.

I’ll be more specific to your question. Whistleblowing, or the act of giving anonymous tips of wrong doing, is a large global theme for SAFE. It allows anyone in the world who knows sensitive information about any crime to shed light on it anonymously, safely, and without being censored. If someone knows of human trafficking, or any other crimes being committed, then at any given moment they have the ability to tell the rest of the world without repercussion, identification, or censorship. That is insanely powerful and I think could actually tip the balance of crime into a much lighter direction than you are supposing.

tl;dr SAFE would actually be perhaps the strongest tool to counteract crime safely, in the world, with future apps built to organise people against it.

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+1. Some of the light will be shed on the dark.

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I 100% agree @whiteoutmashups and @altpath and I like to look at it this way - Stars are the most beautiful at night and it is the darkness that allows them to shine through. The darker the night the brighter they shine.

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@neo, may I request that the moderators link all these topics and continue to link all these inquires together under one topic. New people will visit and will have the same questions and I don’t think we should just ignore them or close the topic because we’ve answered it several times already.

Maybe we can start a new thread that is not off topic so that people can see it and maybe that thread can start with a statement like, we understand your concerns and here is our primary opinion on the matter …fill in the blank. (I really like what @whiteoutmashups said in this thread and I like the title of this thread),

We can also include in the introduction David’s quote if he is ok with this.

@dirvine “We get this a lot. The real bad folks as opposed to the mistakenly inquisitive etc. are on the internet at the moment using a myriad of very hard to setup security and crypto. What MaidSafe does is makes everyone on the planet on the same playing field in terms of security.
People who are evil etc. will still need to be tracked down by other means as they are now.
Don’t need forgiveness for the question, it’s exhausting for us as we answer it an awful lot, but undeniably an important question, so no prob. Watch this though we will now get the completely way off track accusations on this thread now calling us all sorts of evil people because we allow A or B or C, it is tiring and those people are obsessed and way on a far side of the debate. Its like politics or religion I think :slightly_smiling:

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Yeah maybe we need like a freedom and security FAQ or something for all the repeat questions and answers that come up. The FAQ can be pinned on the mainpage as a closed topic with links and any additional discussion can be done off-topic.

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The mods discussed this and this is the new topic. The old one/others are being left closed. So others were closed and this is the topic. And rather than being FUD, it starts positively, thanks to @whiteoutmashups

This is a very contentious subject and tends to polarise people and often people on both sides are plugging their ears saying lalala etc. Whereas the simple matter is that nearly all technology from fire, through metal making, though roads, through science, through computing/electronic communications has enable both the evil and the good in this world. And we are here in the 21 century with some of the lowest crime rates in history (all crimes). SAFE does not provide anything more helpful to the perverts/criminals than is already available. But SAFE does enable the people of the world to free themselves from the snooping of the authorities like the criminals already do.

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Couldn’t have said it better myself. The exact line of thought that Tim Cook has been expressing lately

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Is this the reason why the mods have decided not to consider my suggestion to pin this topic on the front page? I may be wrong but strongly feel that doing this would be more proactive and help reduce the reactive filtering by the mods to this off topic thread by all the new same questions that will be coming.

Best to PM @moderators so we all see the question as we all don’t read every topic necessarily

The subject only comes up occasionally and pinning a topic is only for special cases or to notify people of some change. To pin a topic on this subject matter is only inviting the more polarised to join the forum just to bag freedom or freedom “haters”.

If people have a serious concern then they can search for the subject and continue in that topic, or start a new one if they feel their question is new. I have seen topics on this subject matter (elsewhere) go for 1000’s of posts with people who refuse to listen just keep up the “protect the children” or similar mantra. In that case it include prominent people who actually save children from trafficking. The problem was they thought the internet could be absolutely effectually filetered and censored of all this material. Even when the senator in charge was shown 56 ways school children use to bypass his plan he still put his fingers in his ears and called all people opposing supporters of the sickos. Oh and the time taken to show him the bypass methods was around an hour.

I doubt anyone here wants to think that this material will be stored on SAFE, but we have to realise that no matter the technology, if some sickos/crims want to use it they will, be it roads, telephone or computers/internet. Do we disable the good in the world just to make the crims move to another technology? We may as well lock up every one in their own cell, just to be sure no crimes occur, oh wait who watches the cells then :wink:

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Robots! Perfect utopia :slight_smile:

True that and also technology is constantly evolving as is crime and as is policing. This will never change. They said terrible things about bitcoin in the beginning too but then the cops caught up with the times and upping their game, simple. Same will happen with SAFE network if it gets used for criminal activity the police will have to do their jobs and get the mongrels.

End of the day privacy is privacy I see it no different to locking my door and closing my blinds and guess what most people never do anything wrong in their own houses but a very small amount of people do and they need to be caught, charged and have their rights to live among normal law abiding citizens taken away from them and it doesn’t matter whether they commit those crimes behind closed doors or in the public, the crime is the problem not the locks and doors.

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That was deeeeep @goindeep :slightly_smiling: Well said.

I assumed all the mods saw and discussed the question. But now I think you must have been talking about your decision to close these type of posts in general.

But if the perception is that we’ve close the door in there face and are ignoring/avoiding the question, they will only bang louder and garner more support. However, if we invite them in and initiate/control the conversation, explain our position in an empathetic way like I think we have done in this post, then I think we have a better chance of winning the more reasonably minded.

Maybe the mods are not seeing enough of these types of post yet to pin this to the front page. Just thought it was not a bad thing to do before the poop :flushed: hits the fan so to speak. :slightly_smiling:

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NOTE: this is my personal opinions.

The door is not closed. The topic can be replied to here

Pinning this so “we invite them in and initiate/control the conversation” would turn this forum from one with a primary aim of discussing the technical aspects of SAFE and its implications into one of discussing the broad issue of crime and especially this horrific type of crime.

It does not need pinning, we really in my personal opinion do not need to be inviting people uninterested in SAFE to discuss how crypto enables criminals. This topic is ever so much bigger (and only slightly related) than SAFE, or crypto in general and you only have to look in the papers to see the hate generated over this subject. It really is amongst one of the most charged topics amongst the polarised. The average joe sees it as a horrific type of crime and realises that traditional police work is the best way to solve the crimes. (Evidence is in the news papers - police join a ring then bust it without “cracking any crypto”)

I really am having trouble why we want to turn this forum from a technical discussions to one of dealing with crimes, which is what pinning this type of topic on the front page will do. This affects every project and how many pin topics about this on their front page. Github, Facebook, Google+, and so on do not pin on the entry page topics about sexual crimes.

EDIT: just thought you do know what pinning a topic is. It is putting it on the top of everything else and highlighting it in a different colour and shown when one visits the forum.

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I thought that pinning would keep this topic on the front page but did not realize it would be highlighted. This is certainly NOT a subject I want to see highlighted on this forum.

I see and understand your point more clearly now especially when you said: [quote=“neo, post:13, topic:7146”]
This affects every project and how many pin topics about this on their front page. Github, Facebook, Google+, and so on do not pin on the entry page topics about sexual crimes.
[/quote] I am happy that this post will remain open to filter these type of questions and give those who wish an opportunity to respond and I now agree with you that these contentious exchanges should remain off topic.

Actually I personally am open to it appearing with the other topics on the front page. The huge topic on this subject did so when it was open. But I also am happy to agree with the decision for it to be in the offtopic since it is a side issue to any other category.

Yea, I started to wonder about your reasons then it occurred to me that what the forum software called “pinned” topic and what you meant were different things.

I am glad that we sorted that out and so this topic can go back to being on topic in the offtopic category :smile:

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Hi guys, just thinking about future :wink: when SafeNetwork will go live…
I think, well, that building new internet is a great idea. Total decentralisation, total anonimity and no ownership. However, i think that this great idea should be adapted to our system, which is made of billions of people. And this is a huge issue, cause people are complex and problematic.
I’m not doubting about the future success of the project cause it’s revolutionary, i’m just imaginating its future and wondering how to make Safe more “realistic” for our complicated community.
Just think about crime circulating through SafeNetwork, drug deals, child pornography, etc… all things that should be monitored by third authorities.
How would you solve these problems if Safe is totally anonymous and decentrilised?
I think it’s a huge question, cause total anonimity is not always a good point if the system is not checked.
Hope my point of view could be interesting for you!
Let me know your opinions and how you imagine the future with SafeNetwork
Thanks!

Even if the SAFE network becomes hugely successful people will continue to use the Web and leak information. But okay let’s say that heavy criminal organizations move their mischief entirely into the SAFE network. That might be a real concern but it’s also probable that law enforcement and intelligence agencies already know who those dangerous elements are and are already tracking them through conventional means.

Prove your claims. Why should be drug deals monitored by authorities? The more authorities fight against drugs the worse impact it has. Prohibition on alcohol was big mistake. Drug illegality is killing hundreds of thousands of people in drug cartel wars. Make drugs legal and mafia will starve and die. Same like prohibition created strong mafia once it ended mafia lost main source of income. Child pornography is not problem, problem is process of child pornography creation. Yes it is illegal to own it, create it and share it, but the main harm is in the process of creation. Yes safe network will help many criminals, but it will also help everyone to protect their privacy. And that is much more valuable. There will be always criminals if there is a motivation for them. Arrest one, second will come. Cut their opportunities and they will get a major kick. Safenet will protect people and that is what will make less opportunities for all criminals.

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I think that none wants SafeNetwork to become a far west, right?
IMO the Web needs to be checked for the protection of the people who use it.

EDIT: i’m saying this and created this post cause i’d like to show you what the external opinion and institutions would to say to fight against Safe. I think this is a point that’s better not to undervalue

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam. If you search for “criminal” on this forum, at least 50 results will populate. I don’t know what more is to be said beyond privacy permits people to act in both benevolent and malevolent ways.

Consider that 84% of child sexual abuse occurs in a residence. However, I don’t see people lining up to suggest we put cameras in all homes. Sexual exploitation of anyone (and especially children) is beyond unforgivable. A secure internet will not stop this–or any other crime. But, perhaps a SAFE network can even provide tools to combat many forms of exploitation (i.e., a method to communicate and report incidents in a truly anonymous way). At the end of the day, the first and last mile in most criminal activities is real, not digital.

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