Questions Re: SAFE Wallet, Bitcoin Fork, and Coin Supply


#41

1 - you can farm SAFEcoin when the SAFE network goes live
2 - farming mostly needs storage space, good internet connection, and good uptime. CPU / RAM not so important, at least not until compute is implemented.
3 - you can support MAIDsafe coin by buying them. You can support the project as a whole by participating in discussions here, making apps on the testnets, submitting bug reports, etc


#42

By the sacrificial data.

Thanks for this. I tried quickly to find this myself but lacked the correct search terms. For anyone else who is interested, the most relevant is here RFCS : Safecoin implementation (also RFCS: 4 and 5).

TLDR: an as-of-yet unimplemented, but algorithmic calculation based on the local farming rate, which is tied to the network’s need for resources as per digipl.

This also makes it seem (I could be wrong here) fairly obvious to me that long term scaling will require a divisible safecoin -> $10 USD (or $100 if you have the moon in your eyes) safecoin will make initial writes of small data very expensive…


#43

How this works is you pay safecoin and your manager group (client manager) will use this to make multiple writes. So you won’t pay a safecoin per write. The detail is not in code but you will basically credit your account with a safecoin.


#44

Thanks! Need to read everything once again it seems.


#45

Thank you.

So what is the best setup to start producing them at the point of launch? I
know practically nothing about hardware/software needed.


#46

Take a look through the forum for some threads specific to farming. For example this one Best farming hardware


#47

@JulianB now is a good time to start hanging out here and learning what you need to learn. If your main interest is farming, this will gradually answer the questions you asked above more clearly as both you and others figure them out (me too :slight_smile:).

I would suggest:

  • join in with Test 15, which is imminent, to learn how to run a vault (no farming yet).
  • keep an eye on discussions about farming approaches and hardware which are bound to resurface more and more as test Safecoin gets closer
  • join in with farming test Safecoin and use that period to figure out how you want to farm and what hardware you want to use
  • and keep that going, because nobody will know in advance when that test Safecoin will become real Safecoin (beta declared!) and early farmers are likely to have an edge so good to be in right at the start

#48

This doesn’t seem accurate. If what you say is true, then fiat currency also has intrinsic value since you need fiat currency to buy goods and services in the home country of that fiat currency. However, the value of fiat currency depends in part on the increase in the money supply. Similarly, I suspect that the value of Safecoin will depend in part on how fast coin supply grows. That’s one of the key questions I’m trying to understand, and I don’t feel like I’ve seen a good answer or mental model on how to think about it.

Those who need Safecoin for petty cash purposes to buy website hosting and storage on the network (i.e network consumers) should be dwarfed by speculators because network consumers will own Safecoin only transiently. They’ll convert fiat currency to Safecoin when they need to buy network resources. They will not hold Safecoin for any meaningful period of time because doing so would create substantial currency exchange risk given that businesses report their profits and loss in fiat currency, not Safecoin. Anyone who chooses to actually hold Safecoin for a substantial period of time would be acting as a speculator or investor, not a network user.

Is this really true? If it’s true, it seems like it will seriously hinder adoption of the network. I don’t think many people would be comfortable uploading data or websites to a network that can’t ever be deleted.

Can someone point me to documentation that explains this? I’m surprised/confused by how that can work since I would think that two factors completely explain coin supply growth: 1) supply/demand equilibrium for supplying network resources / consuming network resources and 2) fiat price of Safecoin (since farmers pay for new storage devices in fiat currency when they buy it at retail stores). If you introduce a third factor like an S curve for farming rewards with different curves before and after 3B coins outstanding, you’d have to relax the assumption of balanced supply/demand for network resources for the equations to balance. That would like lead to excess supply of network resources in the early stages post launch, and potentially an undersupply of network resources in the later stages post launch.


#49

Everyone who is a regular user of the network will hold at least some Safecoin, and from time to time top it up as it is depleted. That, IMO gives it value.

Whether that gets dwarfed by speculators or not depends on how many ordinary users there are, the amount of commerce there is, how much is tied up in wallets and trade, versus the volume of speculation.

I don’t pretend speculation won’t dominate, or know that it will. It remains to be seen, I’m just saying that Safecoin does have a source of intrinsic value.

It doesn’t make sense to me that because I keep a balance in my wallet to use on the network, or even as savings, I’m classed as a speculator, but that is just a difference of opinion.


#50

Well not really. SAFEcoin does have intrinsic value as happybeing said. If you want to use the network you have no choice but to use and BURN your coins to do so (very different to spending fiat since they are now gone, not just in someone else’s hands). There is also a finite supply, unlike fiat. Once burned they become available again to be re-farmed back into existence.Fiat has no intrinsic value, it is based purely on trust/faith. It doesn’t matter if you think SAFEcoin is worth anything or not; if it can be burned to gain access to resources then it does indeed have ‘intrinsic’ value, regardless of fickle and volatile things like belief and trust…

This doesn’t make sense to me. Why should the velocity of money through usage relate to the size of the speculator %.

This reveals some misunderstanding of how the system is designed to work. A very small % of users might ‘buy’ SAFEcoins on an exchange. Crypto is tiny and if SAFE required us to buy our way into using it then it would find it very hard to get mass adoption (as with BTC etc). The network is designed so users do not need to work out how to buy or sell crypto. I would guess that almost all users will ‘just hold’ the few coins they have, and burn them when they use them, then farm and hold more until next needed. If the network has a decent # of users then this should dwarf the speculator %, not the other way around?! Talk of ‘exchange risk’ as a deterrent for holders or a reason for them to sell seems crazy when we’re talking about mass adoption and Joe Public. These folks won;'t care about their $20 worth of coin having a volatile fiat value because they don’t care about the fiat value, it’s just a utility that they use to dl their films and ul their pics each day. And they get it for free by leaving their pc on.

I’m not the person to field a question like this, but obviously ‘mutable data’ etc is editable.

Sure, I think you’ll find answers to all of the rest of it in here: :slight_smile:

https://blog.maidsafe.net/tag/safecoin/


#51

I think if they understood the way files are stored then there wouldn’t be that concern.

If they upload public files then its a moot point since its public and copies would be made if the file was deletable.

If they upload private files then no-one else sees those files anyhow, so whats the problem. But then to make it better they can delete the file pointers so that they no longer even see the file and the datamap is gone. Thus no one can retrieve the file anymore because the breaking up into chunks requires both the addresses of the chunks and the order they were stored in to be able to retrieve any of the file. And since both those things are gone when the file pointer is deleted the file effectively no longer exits. Its just a bunch of “random encrypted” chunks being stored forever on an ever increasing data store. (drive sizes grow 10 times every 5 years for the last 30 years)

Thus there is no need to feel uncomfortable.


#52

I think one has to be careful in using the term “intrinsic” value. Value is subjective - as in “value to whom?”. So the Safe Network has value, not because of anything intrinsic, but because people will discover the service has value - offering something they want - and this will lead to a market value.

It’s people who give things value.


#53

If my data is being secured, then this is not a mere feeling i have, or an opinion that it might be… It simply is. The coin is backed by data, data is fundamentally valuable…therefore Safecoin and the network has intrinsic value.

No?


#54

The fiat price of the Safecoin is completely out of the equation. The network doesn’t know, or can know, the fiat price. The only thing the network knows is if spare resources exist or not. And knowing that, the network adapts itself by modifying the amount of resources (PUTs) that a safecoin can buy.


#55

It’s the value you and others place on such security that gives the network value. If no one in this world wanted such security, then the Safe Network would have no value - as no one would want it. This is why value is subjective - it’s humans who value things.


#56

Regards to value of coins. Openly traded on markets so…pull out the crystal ball.


#57

That’s not true is it? Even if no one valued privacy, security or freedom the coins would still have the ability to store and serve data. The coin has an intrinsic value as it can be burned to access these objectively valuable computing resources. Just like any consumable resource has intrinsic value before it has been consumed. The value of serving and storing data is not a subjective quality of safecoin, it is an intrinsic value.

What you are talking about affects how valuable it is… the subjective demand for the qualities of the thing. This does not detract from the inherent or intrinsic value just because it also affects the price that others are subjectively willing to pay.

The floor price of SAFEcoin should correspond with its intrinsic value to store and serve data. Although the subjective values of things like of security and investment are what will determine the actual price and how valuable users/traders believe it to be.


#58

Back to #3 of the OP regarding a Bitcoin hardfork. What would happen to MaidSafeCoins currently stored on exchanges? Would it best to withdraw all coins back into wallets before a HF?


#59

Actually MAID on exchanges is “safer” in my opinion. But really just as safe since they will simply use the “winning” blockchain that the omni-protocol chooses to use when you decide to withdraw MAID


#60

The word safe is a pretty cautious word in an online industry,
I’ve found this article really useful for your questions!

http://24crypto.prophpbb.com/post2.html#p2