Public ID's (Discussion)

Yes I was under the impression that this was a temporary fix, and we will have http:// replaced by safe:// very soon instead of continuing to use .safenet over today’s clearnet.

We are still trying to become an entirely new internet correct?

This has always been a huge point of mine.

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Ever heard pet naming system?

Micro dns is better than centralized planned dns like what maidsafe has in place right now.

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There are several questions concerns raised in your post. I’ll try to address them one by one. I’m sure other people may have similar questions/concerns. The following is my point of view based on events that led to where we are today.


Q: Why are we using a dot extention (.safenet) instead of a new protocol like (SAFE:)?

A: We initially tried to use (SAFE:) to replace (HTTP:) but this required a browser plugin for each browser, which means download and installation, and then support from browser updates like (firefox, chrome, and others). It came down to what works and ease-of-use. MaidSafe transitioned from (SAFE:) to (.safenet) which made the browser setup VERY easy and less work for the devs. We don’t need a plugin anymore… just copy/past the .pac address into your browser settings and you’re good to go.

Q: Why do Public ID’s behave like DNS on SAFE websites?

A: Accurate navigation is the main reason. If we tell people go to (dyamanaka.safenet), everyone must navigate to the same website. Some would argue this isn’t a problem using a decentralized listing service… see thread V - No DNS. We have 6 threads discussing solutions to website navigation, squatting, transferring, and ownership. You can review and comment these threads in more detail. As a consumer specialist, it comes down to a better user experience. While people like familiar, they’re also willing to upgrade if it makes life easier.

RFC - Decentralised Naming System
RFC - Decentralised Naming System II - continuous auction (by Seneca)
RFC - Decentralised Naming System III - prevent domain transfer (dirvine)
RFC - Decentralised Naming System IV - inhibiting domain squatting (happybeing)
RFC - Decentralised Naming System V - No DNS
The Petname System

Q: That is a valid concern. Said another way… who gets exclusive “use” over commonly used names?

A1: These Public ID’s must be (unique) in order to function correctly. Imagine dialing the exact same number and randomly calling up 1000 different people. Someone suggested adding a random 3 letter extention (david - XBG), allowing more people to use a common name. We may need a listing service to find and sort all the different variations… similar to a phone book directory. But I think people already resolved this issue… see A2 below.

A2: (Unique) conflicts with (Common Names). I’ve seen this in popular MMO games and social networks. To my surprise, users come up with different variations of a common name, and somehow life goes on… however see A3 below.

A3: We are talking about a global internet. The population could grow into a billion users! If that ever happens, I’d be super happy we impacted the world to that degree. Perhaps, we will have a better solution in the future. But as @bluebird mentioned, people prefer names that are easy to remember. Unfortunately, this is a limitation of human memory.

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Isn’t the name “dyamanaka” translated by the DNS function to the actual ID which is the public key.

So pet name or micro dns is going to allow people to have any name for your public ID key

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I can see this as being very problematic, say if I’m using a friendly general social network app in one window and in the other managing hardcore porn. Don’t want to mix the two public IDs now do I? :wink:

So what if it’s high subjective value? It doesn’t cost the network anything more than any other PUT which is kind of the point and the key to it’s value. It’s cheap relatively speaking. That’s the advantage of SAFE, you can create websites and so forth easily. To artificially inflate the value of public ids because they are useful but don’t actually cost the network additional resources threatens the network.

Can you not see the dangerous precedent this would set? Not only are you creating a “special put”, and who knows how the network would determine that, but also you are basing the value on the assumption that space is cheap. It’s the SAFE network and the value of resources are liable, and intended, to fluctuate. What happens when 1 GB costs $500 or $1,000 in safecoin? Even if it was only $100 which is about what it costs now at hardware price (maybe a bit less) what then? 1,000 x 100 = 100,000 to get a public id? What if it was a mere dollar per gig? $1 per GB? That’s 1 grand in safecoin! This is exactly why your idea is a threat to the SAFE network. No one is going to pay a grand to start a website or operate on the network and remember you need a public ID to do pretty much anything on the network.

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I believe so, yes. This is how I understand it…

Public Name == dyamanaka
I register this name as long as it’s not already taken, therefore it’s unique.

Public Key == Hash(Hash(public_name) + type_tag))
SAFE DNS translates the (Public Name) ~> (Public Key) which is used to retrieve and decrypt the file.

In order for SAFE DNS to “derive” the Public Key, it needs to know the Public Name.

I’m basing my understand from the quote below, taken from the first RFC - Decentralized Naming System.

To find this information an application will Hash(Hash(public_name) + type_tag)) and retrieve this packet.

This prevents two identities using the same name, is this really the best way to go. This is more like twitter than facebook in approach.

Devs, if this is not exactly how it works, please correct this explanation.


This is a little more complicated. But yes, we can have a pet name or micro dns listing service. It takes the actual (Public Key) and associates whatever name the listing creator/curator wishes.

I say this is complicated because…

  • There could be as many variations as there are listings. Think different versions of the bible.
  • People from different listings won’t have the exact same information. dyamanaka on listing A may not be the same dyamanaka on listing B.
  • Typically, one “most trusted” listing will evolve, and majority use that service to reference information to their peers. Think google search engine. Obviously, this is not autonomous but human driven and controlled. I’m sure there will be many niche listings for different interests (whitelists, blacklists, special interests, etc).

I’m always in favor of a better user experience. I believe listings services will arise because people need to find things. And this will happen naturally anyway. We can keep the core SAFE DNS function as it is and let people customize their experience with their favorite listing service.

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Interesting point, I had not considered multitasking different APPS. Perhaps each APP could “select” a Public ID at the time it requests permission. Or put another way, when the SAFE Launcher permission window pops up, you have the option to select which Public ID the APP will use.


I disagree. If the Network charges more for Public ID’s regardless of actual resources used, it increases income, which increases circulation to the “Network” economy. IMO a Network going bankrupt is more threatening and probable than rising fiat prices. If Safecoin’s fiat value remains extremely high, the Network must be in demand, which is a good sign.

The PUT costs for a Public ID will always be less than 1MB… in other words 1 PUT. So 1000 PUTS (1GB) per Public ID is still a very small costs in actual SAFE space. Your scenario requires special circumstances to reach the $1000 Public ID cost.

What happens when 1 Safecoin is worth $1 and only buys 1 PUT?

  • This is extremely unlikely unless… there’s a massive frenzy of whale speculators intentionally driving up the fiat price AND the Network is at full capacity. If that is the case, yay for early investors, lets go farming, and Public ID’s for sale!
  • The market would have to be really irrational to pay $1 per Safecoin when it only buys 1 PUT (1MB) in SAFE storage. But let’s assume people are temporarily insane, which does happen.
  • I think there would be a stampede of new farmers joining the Network trying to turn their 1TB hard drives into $1,000,000 dollars! That’s right, 1TB = 1,000,000 potential GET requests. If the Network is charging 1 SC per PUT it could be paying out 1 SC per GET.
  • As new Safecoins enter the market, the fiat price will likely go down until an equilibrium is reached.

If all else fails, just run a vault(s) and farm Safecoin to pay for your Public ID, you’ll only need to provide 1GB or 1000 GET requests.

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Just a minor correction here

As cost of PUT goes up so does farming rewards. But they are not the same

I would think if the algorithms were changed to farming reward = put cost then the economics would fail.

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Thanks.

I was just trying to show the relationship in simple terms.

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Interesting idea. If that is the case I think there should be an option within the launcher to switch the public ID within the launcher assigned to any given app. Say I want to “log out” of safebook under one name and “log in” under another. Or say I want to assume a different name for one profile while browsing through a kinky BDSM site and then relog in under a different profile so I can explore a totally different side of my personality. Would be handy for those awkward kinks that you don’t want EVERYONE to know about or even associate with your identity. Well you get the idea. Essentially a log in and out feature so you don’t have to be constantly reallowing the app access from scratch. You could also have a menu listing your public IDs and sort them into folders and what not. Keep it organized.

Uh, what? How could the network go bankrupt? That makes no sense. I devote x number of resources which results in me being paid safecoin which I then use to upload x number of data. Cycle complete. How does the network go bankrupt? It can’t, it’s a closed loop.

I disagree. We shouldn’t artificially inflate the fiat cost of safecoin. SAFE is a RESOURCE economy. That’s it’s power. Didn’t we learn anything from the banking cartel and debt based currency? Don’t base currency on debt and usury. There is no reason to value a public id 1000x more than any other PUT. So what safecoin is cheap as hell in fiat? That’s irrelevant as it just means people will buy up safecoin. If people buy up safecoin they’ll be devoting resources to the network. And who is to say what value a Pub ID is worth? Could be worth nothing could be worth millions. Paying the price of a gig when the resources aren’t being used doesn’t make sense. It’s an artificial inflation and contrary to how a resource economy works, at least at the network layer anyway. You want to buy up a bunch of public Ids and sell them for a gig each that’s your affair. But this whole business of the network going broke and that being an excuse for artifical inflation makes absolutely no sense.

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Well I think that in the days of scam and fake and hacks and leaks, people would put more scrutiny into being precise and would be checking certificates or using e.g. qr codes in the advent of bazillion of new and fancy toplevel domains emerging daily out there and people have long ago stopped memorizing their domain names but entering their words or remembered names into their favourite search engines and similar. Also checking security certificates, hash sums of downloads or files, and things such security extensions to ancient services such as dns or email all ring the same bell to me. You cant have security without being precise and exact about what piece of data you want to access and without proof and verfication.

But the major point I see here is that a concept such as maidsafe just doesnt need an old school hierarchical system such as dns where you group your data on y server that needs to have a dns entry and so forth. In fact its the other way around the main repository here is the network itself whose participants or better say members and direct bearers we all are, or ought to be and as I said equals among equals, and I dont need to ask for permission and to fork over money or fork over trust to be able to be a holder of an oldschool ip address or dns entry (address in general). I only need to use the inherent features of the network as total to include and insert my piece of data, automatically resulting in an address and name.

I must not race or be an early adopter or have special means or connections to some developer, or groups, or marketplace or special powers or relations.
I just create my object and put it on the network and it will (it needs) to automatically have a unique address of its own, and that needs to be cryptographically safe and sound and proof. And the network (must) and the users can check these security metadata to be sure they landed where they wanted to or they fetched or sent what they intended to.

Looking at fellow Freenetproject network, or even just barely related tech such as n-coin (e.g. bitcoin) or similar, there you can then try to brutefore a (more) nicely looking hash or crypto part for your site / objects address and so on, and thats what probably might make sense if at all.

But again, the oldworly paradigm of centralised and hierarchical dns makes absoltely no sense to me.

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If what you say is true, people won’t use SAFE DNS names. But I think we both know they will, and that what you say is really how you would like things to be, rather than how most people will expect them to work - which helps speed adoption.

Personally I still use domain names a lot. I also use search a lot. It isn’t either/or, and I’m afraid you are probably going to be stuck with domain names because it will ease adoption (which on SAFE are not really that hierarchical - just one TLD: safenet).

The fact they can be squatted is unfortunate, but let’s see if MaidSafe have any tricks ready to alleviate that. If not, perhaps the community could get together and set up a better squatter/trading system. There has been quite a lot of talk about such solutions but that remains to be turned into action, so I expect we will just live with it. There are worse things to be concerned about TBH.

People can still build their own systems on top or use hashed addresses too I believe, so may the best system win! Or perhaps let users choose which they like. :slight_smile:

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Well maybe I have personally a long(er) history with tools such as Freenet or other paradigms but I still think these centralized ideas and hierarchical stuff such as dns names dont fit in with the new paradigms that maidsafe would hopefully stand for. But maybe we just need more iterations and respins and forks of the network and the project and other implementations and eventually it will evolve and be done with the old way to do things. We shall see.

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Perhaps you could also specify, or pre-set, permissions for different Public IDs so that you don´t accidentaly use a certain APP with a certain ID. Say, for ID 1 you give all APPs the possibility to be used, but for ID 2 only the SAFEbook application, and for ID 3 only the bank application. Even if you have them pre-set you need to give them permission each time (this could be user defined also), but it would make it less likely to accidentaly use an ID in the wrong setting.

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Good suggestions @Aster and @Blindsite2k,

Instead of the Authorisation Request pop up window I previously suggested, we can use the Manage Permissions Tab with a Public ID (drop down selection). Or we can add a Public ID Tab, whichever works. The user can see which Public ID’s are assigned to the APPS and change them when needed.

This assumes APPS send a PUT request and SAFE Launcher can attach/assign the “selected” Public ID signature. But I’m not certain it works this way, so we are just brainstorming ideas to make a better user interface.

I have no idea how hard or easy MaidSafe can remodel the SAFE Launcher. But I firmly think Public ID’s should be created & managed in the SAFE Launcher. If possible, I hope MaidSafe can do this easily.


Fun Thought…

Imagine a video comparing SAFE Network VS The Internet. There is a split screen showing a user sending an email from 3 different accounts.

Split Screen Left (SAFE Network)

  1. User logs into the SAFE Launcher.
  2. User opens the email APP
  3. User (One-Click) selects their 1st Public ID and sends email.
  4. User (One-Click) selects their 2nd Public ID and sends email.
  5. User (One-Click) selects their 3rd Public ID and sends email.

Split Screen Right (The Internet)

  1. User logs into the 1st email account.
  2. User sends email.
  3. User logs into the 2nd email account.
  4. User sends email.
  5. User logs into the 3rd email account.
  6. User sends email.

The video shows a better email experience on the SAFE Network compared to The Internet. If we put money into marketing we should show people how the SAFE Network is better.

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We (who care about this project) will shoot ourselves in the foot if we sit back and do nothing.

Maidsafe does not seem interested at the moment so the community should start to take action in proposing a squatter system through the CEP IMO.

Please PM me or @19eddyjohn75 if you would like to help. Thank you.

@Safety1st Although I agree that we should take action, it’s better to do so together as a community. We can create a community powered publicID auction, I willing to contribute $1000 to that. But all the money generated from this would go to Maidsafe, maybe a little would be set aside to pay for web related costs. Most important to me is that Maidsafe gets money in the kitty.

Sorry i have to go to work, have a nice day everybody:stuck_out_tongue:

@nicklambert is probably correct, that it is too early to be thinking about this. Better to spend your energy on something else.

@bitbybit

Seriously, why would MaidSafe or anyone else reserve IDs for current (btw. that changes every second) owners on the clearnet? It really doesn´t make sense to me. A large part of current ownership are domains is risk investment/domain squatting. Then you have corporations that claimed their right to own certain domains because they own a trademark.

I remember opposing the idea to sell publicIDs for several reasons

  1. with close to 0 cost we will see a lot of domain squatting within the first months of the SAFE network. I then expected users to turn towards decentralized DNS and what we currently see as “domains” will be merely cryptic keys. Then of course clear domain names will be irrelevant.
  2. it´s unlikely to provide sufficient funds
  3. we don´t know the precise implementation, there are several RFC for that matter as @dyamanaka has pointed out above

However, I believe I have to reconsider 1 and 2:

  1. I still expect massive domain squatting to take place if the price for registering a publicID is close to 0 or 0. If after few weeks you can´t register more than cryptic keys people may turn towards alternative solutions like pet naming system. However, this doesn´t mean that a ID sale wouldn´t find interested investors. It could even raise the value of clear name IDs.

  2. I think it was @happybeing who raised concerns whether a sale of publicIDs will gather sufficient funds to support development of MaidSafe for more than a month. The main reason why I supported that argument was that we were talking about prices in the Cent-range. The example of Urbit shows that people were willing to pay 200 USD for a project that is even more experimental (although we might have to consider that scaricity is higher in the case of Urbit).

A possible implementation I see (EDIT: I realised @19eddyjohn75 proposed something very similar in this [long] thread :wink:

  1. MaidSafe launches a page where users enter their email and a list of publicIDs they intend to purchase
  2. The event runs in two phases: a public auction and a public sale:
    a) whenever a publicID has been entered at least twice, this ID automatically becomes part of the auction. Users who entered the domain are informed 1 weeks ahead. More to the auction later.
    b) whenever a publicID has been entered only once, the user will be informed 1 week ahead that the ID is part of the public sale. In the public sale all entered domains are openly visible to everyone and cost a fixed price (i.e.100$/ID).

I think this give MaidSafe a decent revenue to finance and scale up their operation.

Regarding the auction I think that Second Price Sealed Bids are the best way to go. Possible implementations:

  1. For each ID a Bitcoin address is created. Users send their bids to the address. The highest amount paid from one address after 4 weeks wins the bid. The remaining bids are refunded. This includes, of course, risks for MaidSafe if something goes wrong with the reimbursement. Since we can expect several thousands of addresses, the handling can become complicated and errors may occur.
  2. An Tullock lottery would certainly prevent the hassle of reimbursement, but can´t be carried out with public BTC addresses.

Certainly there are even better solutions, feel free to add.

In general, @19eddyjohn75, I wonder why you don´t consider making a crowdsale for an ID auctionplatform on the SAFEnetwork? @dirvine stated elsewhere that IDs can be easily transferred, if I remember correctly, so it is definitely possible and certainly a market for buying/selling IDs.

It seems like MaidSafe has fewer immediate funding issues at the moment with the extra MAID and the price rise from Yuanbao, at least for now. And they seem to be working on many other plans for funding, before having to sell ID’s to people