What?
I’m trying real hard here but I really don’t think you get the gist of the idea.
Maybe best we just leave it.
OMFG!!!
WHO CARES?
Write a new one!
That is not the point… OMG.
If we can’t discuss ideas “SUGGESTIONS” without getting caught up in meaningless specifics than this will go nowhere. Look past the license and look at the idea alone. The rest is legal mumbo jumbo that can be created as and when needed.
sigh
Dude…I like the idea.
My argument is that this will happen naturally. My confusion only comes from your big leadup in the OP
But then you never say what update you want (in legalize).
See, I don’t think that anyone has to, or is going to be bound by anything other than the GPL V3 (share-alike). So I think that what you’re proposing will happen naturally. My point is that we don’t need no stinkin’ license to tell us what we can or can’t do.
So, now, granted that it happens naturally, what is this discussion about? Well, let’s start with how to encourage APP devs to use this system.
Network99 has already stated that they intend to follow your suggestion to the letter. Sorry, they actually thought of it first! But how to do so with other APPs? For instance:
- video sharing
- content aggregation
- online games?
- forums
- chat rooms
And others that you mention. Don’t mistake my lingering on one topic for diversion. This is a great idea worthy of much discussion.
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I really like your rationale of why revenue sharing and tipping works. However, I think I speak for many here when I say that we’re sick and tired of advertisements. In what ways and to what extent could revenue sharing work without ads?
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I was quoting the license you linked to.
Big lead up?
The title says it is a suggestion and I want this to be a discussion. Nothing set in stone.
It wont happen naturally. I’ve just proven it with the examples provided. App developers need to be prompted.
You are right they won’t be bound by anything other then an agreement, unless of course someone wants to take legal action.
Again it wont always happen naturally, in some cases it will but in many it wont.
And again your getting caught up in semantics. License, terms, conditions, agreements… whatever.
The idea is something along the lines of…
OK you as an APP developer want to build an app or site on the SAFE network and so you download the API, along with that there would be some conditions and a bunch of other technical mumbo jumbo no doubt right?
Well one of the conditions would be that as an app developer on the network you agree to obide by the networks conditions which are that you implement some sort of revenue sharing, tipping or other payment model if your users are generating content that you will profit from.
So now we have a base and we all understand the rules.
No doubt some will misbehave and break the rules and this is fine because this is where we use a review system which is why I said earlier that the market would sort it all out. You would have a review system in place and content creators can turn around and say use this guys site because he is super awesome and he gives me X amount that he receives from the network and he gives me another X amount from backend or dont use this guy because I have spent the last six months doing live videos of me and my cat snuggling which brought in tens of thousands of visitors to his site and he never once shared a dime with me or allowed me to monetize my own content.
No one needs to sue anyone (but if they want to they can) because the market understands the rules and it will take care of itself.
If you still dont know by this stage what the discussion is about than I cant help you.
Personally I’ve never been a fan of male genitalia measuring contests and Jacque Fresco did say “No one ever invents something, they only discover it” or something like that I’m paraphrasing and its late.
How to encourage app developers to use the system? They are already being encouraged by MaidSafe. And with marketing - how else do you think.
How to do what with other apps? Encourage them to develop on the system? If so same as above if not please explain because I dont know what you mean here.
I will not abide that.
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Why thank you kind sir but its not just my rational its common sense.
No one ever said revenue sharing meant sharing revenues from ads only.
So, in other words. It’s up to the app developers to come up with their own business models if they and their customers do not like ads.
Revenue is revenue. And it does not necessarily always come from ads.
Personally I am not a fan of ads either, but it would be naive of us to assume that we have to develop an ad free system for the developers themselves.
Other ideas include as I have already mentioned tipping, pay walls, direct purchases for goods and services, rental schemes, memberships, private clubs, sponsorship’s etc.
Im confused. You want to support content creators but you dont want to agree to share profits with them as your partners?
I don’t want it mandated that I do. I don’t like being told what to do.
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What would you need a license or a change of license for? If you make a blog and you add a tipping button you are done. You write something, someone likes the article and tips you something.
If you build an App (“Safetube” or so) and we have the 10% PtP you can distribute 100% of that money to the users that upload content. And another thing to consider is the fact that Maidsafe won’t be (in the future) the only company/Dev-team that’s giving us Safenet. Jus look at Bittorrent, it was started by one guy, but now you’ll see clients from a lot of different groups. So maybe a new group will fork Safenet and doesn’t use a license at all. As long they’re in line with the protocol things are fine. So connecting producers/App-builders to 1 company would not be a wise thing to do IMHO.
No one does but that’s reality.
My dad always told me growing up that there would always be something or someone telling me the rules and if it wasn’t him it would be my teacher, if it wasn’t the teacher it would be my boss, if it wasn’t my boss it would be the policeman, is it wasn’t the policeman it would be the judge, if it wasn’t the judge it would be society, if not society it would be the laws of physics, if not physics than the Universe or God.
Rules and laws define our reality.
What I am attempting to say is that we need to come up with a way to prompt the app developer to consider his or her users. This is one idea. It does not have to be this. It can be something. But the core idea is the same.
If what you are saying is right and in part it is than why are we having this discussion?
I’ll tell you why.
Because we that what you are saying is not the case. If it was than the Internet would already be full of models like this but its not.
I understand what you are saying and on paper it sounds like a great idea.
So does communism on paper.
But realistically and think about this…why should then network involve itself in the business of the app developer and his users? That sounds awfully autocratic does it not?
In my model we have an agreement which of course we know is not going to be adhered to some of the time but that is where the market takes those who don’t tow the line to task.
Its simple and it works.
And we can have all these childish arguments about “I don’t like rules” but guess what? You agree to a million and one things each year every-time you download something or use software or rent something or whatever. The point is not the rule and again like I said to @smacz it doesn’t have to be implemented like this it could be implemented another way for instance with a carrot instead of a stick where if they do choose to have a model that looks after content creators then maybe they get and additional 1% from the network???
Modgasm for sure !!! 
Tipbots are around but they’re another thing you have to register a username for and put in some BTC and bla bla bla. It’s not very userfriendly. If we have this in a simple system on SAFE using Safecoin people will tip like crazy.
We see them a lot. A lot of folks make money with their vlogs on Youtube. Other websites show some google-ads and get paid per click. My point is, it’s all done through companies, using regular banks etc. If you want producers to connect their content to a company like Maidsafe or something else, the words decentralized and anonymous are gone. Which is the concept behind the whole thing.
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This was unclear in the OP so you might want to edit it for anyone coming anew. We could even delete much of the discussion leading up to it then.
The first part of the above is not currently the case - I think @goindeep you are thinking that app developers already have to agree to some restrictive licence terms to use the API?
Technically, there are things they can’t do if they incorporate the SAFE libraries, but none of those restrictions will apply to developers who only use the API (which is almost all of them). Think in terms of the internet - you can build a website/web app and don’t have to licence the API for the internet in order to do this. Same on SAFEnetwork.
Even those who do incorporate SAFE libraries directly in their code are only subject to the licence you linked to if they decide not to make their code open source under the GPL licence.
I understand your proposal to be as follows: Without forcing / nudging App devs to adopt a revenue sharing or tipping model, few will do it, so we should impose a licence on users of the SAFE API which requires them to do so (or at least makes it more attractive).
I am sure this will not happen for several reasons. Here’s two strong ones IMO…
-
I don’t believe it is legally enforceable to restrict use of an API (code yes, API no) . It’s certainly a contentious area legally, and without a wealthy corporation with lots of high paid lawyers, completely out of reach of the MaidSafe Foundation to even attempt this.
-
Because it is so unusual, doing this would be a big disincentive to developers. It also raises the question of, what else might be added to the license in future, that I as a developer might find unacceptable, which makes me reluctant to invest resources and money because of the risk that creates.
Still A Good Proposal!
The above problems relate only to license based enforcement though. I think the aims of your proposal are worthy of more discussion because you’ve given a really useful analysis of the problem and the solutions we favour (i.e. revenue sharing/tipping without advertising).
So how else can we encourage these?
Can we design them even better, or find new even more attractive models? And how can we encourage App devs to use them?
In the last point I think two ways 1) make it easy (eg as little work as possible), and 2) demonstrate the benefits to the developer (such as attracting users & content providers, creating success and profit!)
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HyperText Markup Language
That’s what a website is. So a writer writes…and wraps it in HTML and now it’s a website… So now it’s an app?
Again. I think a lot of people have a flawed concept of what it takes to ‘make’ an app. What an ‘app’ is, is a broad topic altogether.
I think the whole point of PtP was that it’s actually quite simple. Chunks and their datamap reference a wallet. The network pays in there. My understanding is that it’s essentially the same thing as paying farmers. It’s a whole lot simpler than other suggestions of someone making an app to do essentially this same thing again…
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An app is just something that use the safe api. So a static webpage isnt an app as far as safe is concern.
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It’s a very gray area - even a static HTML page can be an App (tikiwiki being one example) - so I think it’s both fair to say it’s an arbitrary distinction and to acknowledge that it is a very broad spectrum from one extreme to the other. It’s just hard to know what one person means by App, website, web App etc without being more specific about what they do.
Better I think to use @goindeep’s definitions of what reward methods are appropriate in different circumstances, rather than debate what is or isn’t an app.
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In a general sense I agree with you but in the context of Safe, an app is only defined by something that uses its API. Anything else is irrelevant. Case in point, paint is an app, but in the context of Safe it’s nothing. But if paint allow you to save your file on Safe, then it’s a safe app.
So when we talk about dev reward, we talk about apps that make use of Safe in some way not just any app in general.
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