You mean the earnings stop once a file is requested enough to get cached? So there’s a (relatively low) ceiling in how much can be earned per file?
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Your problem is only inevitable if it’s both profitable and more profitable than using the cloud to do something else such as ‘farm’ Safe Network tokens.
Many who object to Pt* (not you) look at this, say X will happen so there’s no point trying which is not a good way to make decisions. The point you make is valid, but wrong in its conclusion because it’s only valid for certain assumptions. We all know people will try to game this, but that doesn’t mean they will be able to, and even if they do we may still be able to fix it.
Hardly ever does someone objecting seem to recognise the potential benefits if we can make it work. They don’t go, if only we could make this work it would give us P, Q and R so I’m going to figure out ways for this to succeed. That may be because they don’t agree in principle, or it doesn’t feel right to them for one reason or another, or they’ve just not thought about or been convinced there are benefits to be had.
For me it’s important to try because it gives us a chance to move away from what I see as problematic or poisonous business models: advertising, gatekeepers, attention driven algorithms embodied in everything from Facebook
to celebrity culture, and the winner takes all music industry.
The more we can give individuals ways to earn which avoid the need for them to engage with those systems, the less power those systems and those with money to set them up or buy them out will have, the less attractive they become when someone sits down and thinks: how can I make some money from my creativity?
Imagine if all they have to do is check a box in the Safe Network app, no need to sign up to a gatekeeper’s business model and have them cream off the profits, no need to give up any freedoms or jump through hoops designed by people who don’t have the same priorities and don’t care if they meet your needs.
That’s important to me because it’s democratising, and directly feeds into the importance of universal access for creators and consumers, one of the fundamental goals of Safe Network. Maybe we can’t achieve this, maybe some don’t agree it’s a good thing to try but then I wonder why they’re here. I’m keen that we should explore the possibilities and decide once we know what’s possible and what’s not, and can attempt to weigh the pros and cons rather than drop the idea prematurity.
That’s the most fun thing about development, and life, for me, trying to come up with something new, or to solve a hard problem. I love it! I’m not sure many people get that because if they knew how much fun solving something like this can be I think we’d have a lot more constructive ideas and brainstorming and less negativity directed at such an exciting and for me, empowering innovation.
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That’s going on the wall. I think development and life are interchangeable in the first sentence 
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Edited! Can we project it on the clouds above the city of naysayers 
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Yes, but this is for the situation where the file is accessed often in short periods of time. Which could be because of gaming attempts. Otherwise that data will fall out of the cache after a time.
I feel the same. Also the gaming can also be done on Farming rewards with tweaks perhaps, which is more profitable.
I see this as the person who dumpster dives accessing their own content for Al cans to make some bucks. They would make much more money by building recycling bins farming for cans and placing them close by food places. They make a ton more money that way with less effort.
Thats what drove me into becoming an engineer. People still are using the fruits of my labour today albeit well developed now after around 50 years.
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Do we? I think it’s far better that “all chunks are created equal” in the eyes of the network. Equally random noise.
Consider all the data that it takes to create a scientific paper. This is not often included and tossed in a drawer after publication. With Safe, all of this could be attached. There could be many terabytes associated with a typical scientific paper.
That definitely is a great equalizer. So “all files are created equal” in the eyes of the network? Would a file that is a single chunk also have a datamap? Wouldn’t accessing the chunk via xor address then bypass the PtP in that case? However, it is not as elegant as a unified reward system based on chunks that handles farming (PtF) and other Pt* in the same simple manner.
Nothing unfair about it imo. The traffic, storage, and increased client views is a huge benefit for network growth and survival imo. The network is rewarding human activity which makes it grow.
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neat input there.
It would have at least 3 chunks.
This is what I think. While popular, it’s valuable if we equate popular to value. Probably is.
Then though, we have the scenario that bothers me. We tend to be herd animals and are lead by a small few. Those small few innovate and take us forward, but we don’t want to see the work or read the output. We just want better, cheaper, faster etc.
So the rewards should go to the minority who move us forward but we could end up rewarding mostly those who benefit from their work and lie back consuming?
It’s an interesting thing. It is similar to my research into the brain (any brain, not just humans, even plants, etc.) and how it works. The further you get, the more natural forces win, so don’t look after the poor and infirm. SO humanity and rewards may be anti-natural, or are they? humanity has evolved, and nature did that, and we look after the inform. You see my washing machine head now I probably should not expose these thoughts 
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I see your point. This is the human-centric perspective and it’s very difficult to manage due to our own subjective biases. That’s why I like to think about these things from the network-centric perspective. It’s a lot easier for me to rationalize. Ex: There is this cybernetic thing that will be born and needs to grow and survive in a harsh world. In what way will it interact with humanity and how can it offer economic rewards to incentivise voluntary human assistance to not only survive, but thrive? Hence Pt*.
As for the minority leaders, they will benefit from existence of the network itself, and the tools it enables, to create new things.
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I think we too easily dismiss the pragmatism of evolution, both in its coldness and its warmth. Humans look after each other because it has proven evolutionarily effective, we saw how purity weakens the system rather than strengthens it, that diversity wins over racial and cultural purity. The codebreakers of WW2 being a favourite example.
Those purist ideals are human experiments that are shown to fail time and again, but evolution will keep trying them just in case one day they are useful…
Also evolution doesn’t measure efficiency the same way a human does, or human culture does, or human science does. So we need to be very careful drawing any conclusions, and a washing machine head reflects that IMO!
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Exactly
without doubt
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Whats all this about washing machines?
To exemplify the point about the rewards going to the unworthy, I just got a badge for a daft wee post that made 60 folk click to see the Github status wheras the real intellectual effort in this thread gets few likes.
Im still lost about the washing machines, though…
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Is that reward “unworthy” though? no I don’t think so.
The contribution was was growing awareness, sharing information with others who were obviously interested so it is worthy and deserves a reward.
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Yes but it was truly clickbait and I put no real creative effort into it.
Im not so certain that I would have got that no of clicks if I had not obfuscated the fact it was going to a GitHub page.
Similarly for the previous post .
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I guessed they were github pagecs and still clicked. Your creative effort was in finding them and sharing a link in a place where people are interested in that. No mean feat! Show me an AI to do that and we can ban you permanently!
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I’ll just change my user name to mole
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I wonder if it would be possible to create a system, where half of the Pay-The-Developer money goes to app developers, and other half goes to developers of open-soure tools/libraries they use.
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Another possibility, given the difficulty of finding good ways for the network to distribute rewards, might be found based on the versatility of the payments mechanism.
So rather than a network centric mechanism there might be one, or probably multiple, collaborative donate and distribute FOSS app and library apps which replace services like Patreon.
I imagine they will be new and imaginative ways to do this, and we already have at least one waiting in the wings.
Personally I’d still like to see something built into the network at least trialled, because that would be immediately accessible to anyone and everyone who uploads without effort, which is something no app based platform could achieve.
Yes, payment on upload makes Pt* difficult doesn’t it since there is no way to know how popular the content is (consumption/App).
I wonder if its possible to add a wallet/payID (with suggested payment/tip amount) to the chunk’s and/or file’s meta data and the client is setup to pay when it is told about the payID/amount. Obviously safeguards would need to be added to the client to prevent thieves putting massive amounts as the suggested amount. Like maybe the user sets max amounts and perhaps pay a % of the suggestion. One person might be happy to pay everyone 10% of their suggested amount up to a max of 100 nano SNT each chunk or file.
That would only require a later version of Safe to store the payID and suggested amount in the meta data for the file. Or with each chunk.
Any thoughts on that @joshuef @JimCollinson ? Would save the foundation having to manually pay so many people and it would mean that its voluntary and based on usage (popularity). No need for the foundation to know about the large majority of APP devs and content providers.
Then the foundation handles supporting APP developers who do not ask for a tip/charge and registers with the foundation. And also the foundation would still support core developers. And it solves the question of PtP which @dirvine suggested early on, but divides the community, by making it voluntary and voluntary on the amount or % of suggested. All it needs is the client to handle the payID/suggested amount fields. The network does no extra work other than store the values and send them as meta data to the client.
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Yes, this is already on the cards and in the works. not necessarily at a 50/50 but at an appropriate split given the contribution and needs of the Network, and of course with the consent of the folks involved.
We are actually planning on a direct reward system for the beta. Will need a smidge of work, and planning, and will likely have to run via the foundation with legals, but it should be a pretty cool way of getting the supply/demand mechanism working as efectibvly as we can for testing, and to make sure testers are rightly compensated for their work.
No reason we couldn’t look to a similar systems for parallel test networks/updates post-launch.
This goes right back to the original Safecoin white-paper, and is in the latest RFC too. It’s the intention that ultimately the Network would pay rewards directly to contributors as a long term, equitable way to fund development, majoring on sustainability and reducing the distorting effects of ad models. A return to direct software human utility and value!
This is a post-launch primary candidate for core research and dev (as per the WP and RFC 61), and will be funded as such, but for now we just need to keep it simple to get there.
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Another thought – it could boost or perhaps even replace core/Foundation royalties, and be more distributed, because it would allow to fund independent core developers as well. Just app devs pointing to Safenet core devs as their dependencies. Perhaps at some point we could cut the umbilical cord…
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