PtP, PtD, and/or Pt* Megathread - Pros and Cons

It’s not feasible to assess the value of a piece of data, not for the network, not for me, not for humanity.

Life has the same problem, so maybe we can learn from the solutions there. What’s the value of a gene, a genome etc? How does evolution choose which genes to value, which genomes? Things like reuse, longevity, diversity spring to mind. It also appears that we don’t know what much of each genome does, or that much of it is redundant, noise (unlikely IMO!).

We need some knowledgeable input to understand the lessons available from evolutionary genetics, but I’m mindful that science really doesn’t understand this yet, and that what understanding we have may still change dramatically. For example with the theory that genes were seeded from space rather than life having always to start from molecules. That’s always seemed plausible to me but even as mounting evidence points towards the cosmic origin of life in earth, the scientific community are resistant to the idea.


I am in a similar place right now, but wondering … there is an angle and it may not be data or put/get but something else? What though I have only fog right now, but that’s normal.


The current web is largely based on something similar to get paid per get, though the income is from ads instead of the network its running on.

Loading a website is cheap, so inevitably people try to use bots to keep reloading pages and clicking on ads. What’s done about this is using extensive tracking and various measure of real user behaviour to try to determine what is a bot and what’s not. This is an ongoing cat and mouse game.

It seems pretty clear that as long as the cost of doing a GET is less than the potential payment for that GET, someone will load up cloud instances fetching pages they’ve uploaded over and over and then use the revenue to load up more even cloud instances, fetching the pages over and over ad infinitum. If the payment for the GET is less than the cost of doing a GET, it will be very little indeed.

Perhaps some kind of valuing based on links could be used, something like PageRank, that would pay based on the number of links, importance rank of the links and the freshness of links.


In my opinion, the network and AI (at least not for foreseeable future) will not be able or would we want it to be able to assess value. Society’s are too diverse and fields of education too and maybe a song/band will bring world peace, there was a movie about that LOL.

But value is best left to the beholder and in more general sense the society one wishes to belong to.

The type of data though could be assessed as having more or less value in terms of reward, maybe not too.

But one metric for a general assessment is length. A movie will in general have more work or effort in producing or even providing to the network than a snapshot of the landscape. A long file will generate more Gets/usage of the network and in a general sense more adoption. Yes there are outliers and its on a scale, but in the more general/common situation. But so does multiple files. Movie compared to picture album. Or cat videos compared to a 2 hour movie.

I would suggest that any Pt* using only per file is as bad as a Pt* using chunks. The in between that brings some balance is to use a log function on number of chunks and the file header has the number of chunks so easy enough to use in my suggestion above.

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This is of course an application layer solution and useful in automatic tipping that one might set up for their account when they browse sites. Optional of course to if and levels of tipping

Caching kills this once you get to the level you might actually earn enough to pay for your cloud. Using cloud services to farm would be more profitable and grow your farm collective faster. Considering farming pays a whole lot better. Remember you have the world accessing farms not a relatively small cloud services.

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You mean the earnings stop once a file is requested enough to get cached? So there’s a (relatively low) ceiling in how much can be earned per file?


Your problem is only inevitable if it’s both profitable and more profitable than using the cloud to do something else such as ‘farm’ Safe Network tokens.

Many who object to Pt* (not you) look at this, say X will happen so there’s no point trying which is not a good way to make decisions. The point you make is valid, but wrong in its conclusion because it’s only valid for certain assumptions. We all know people will try to game this, but that doesn’t mean they will be able to, and even if they do we may still be able to fix it.

Hardly ever does someone objecting seem to recognise the potential benefits if we can make it work. They don’t go, if only we could make this work it would give us P, Q and R so I’m going to figure out ways for this to succeed. That may be because they don’t agree in principle, or it doesn’t feel right to them for one reason or another, or they’ve just not thought about or been convinced there are benefits to be had.

For me it’s important to try because it gives us a chance to move away from what I see as problematic or poisonous business models: advertising, gatekeepers, attention driven algorithms embodied in everything from Facebook
to celebrity culture, and the winner takes all music industry.

The more we can give individuals ways to earn which avoid the need for them to engage with those systems, the less power those systems and those with money to set them up or buy them out will have, the less attractive they become when someone sits down and thinks: how can I make some money from my creativity?

Imagine if all they have to do is check a box in the Safe Network app, no need to sign up to a gatekeeper’s business model and have them cream off the profits, no need to give up any freedoms or jump through hoops designed by people who don’t have the same priorities and don’t care if they meet your needs.

That’s important to me because it’s democratising, and directly feeds into the importance of universal access for creators and consumers, one of the fundamental goals of Safe Network. Maybe we can’t achieve this, maybe some don’t agree it’s a good thing to try but then I wonder why they’re here. I’m keen that we should explore the possibilities and decide once we know what’s possible and what’s not, and can attempt to weigh the pros and cons rather than drop the idea prematurity.

That’s the most fun thing about development, and life, for me, trying to come up with something new, or to solve a hard problem. I love it! I’m not sure many people get that because if they knew how much fun solving something like this can be I think we’d have a lot more constructive ideas and brainstorming and less negativity directed at such an exciting and for me, empowering innovation.


That’s going on the wall. I think development and life are interchangeable in the first sentence :slight_smile:


Edited! Can we project it on the clouds above the city of naysayers :wink:


Yes, but this is for the situation where the file is accessed often in short periods of time. Which could be because of gaming attempts. Otherwise that data will fall out of the cache after a time.

I feel the same. Also the gaming can also be done on Farming rewards with tweaks perhaps, which is more profitable.

I see this as the person who dumpster dives accessing their own content for Al cans to make some bucks. They would make much more money by building recycling bins farming for cans and placing them close by food places. They make a ton more money that way with less effort.

Thats what drove me into becoming an engineer. People still are using the fruits of my labour today :slight_smile: albeit well developed now after around 50 years.

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Do we? I think it’s far better that “all chunks are created equal” in the eyes of the network. Equally random noise.

Consider all the data that it takes to create a scientific paper. This is not often included and tossed in a drawer after publication. With Safe, all of this could be attached. There could be many terabytes associated with a typical scientific paper.

That definitely is a great equalizer. So “all files are created equal” in the eyes of the network? Would a file that is a single chunk also have a datamap? Wouldn’t accessing the chunk via xor address then bypass the PtP in that case? However, it is not as elegant as a unified reward system based on chunks that handles farming (PtF) and other Pt* in the same simple manner.

Nothing unfair about it imo. The traffic, storage, and increased client views is a huge benefit for network growth and survival imo. The network is rewarding human activity which makes it grow.


neat input there.

It would have at least 3 chunks.

This is what I think. While popular, it’s valuable if we equate popular to value. Probably is.

Then though, we have the scenario that bothers me. We tend to be herd animals and are lead by a small few. Those small few innovate and take us forward, but we don’t want to see the work or read the output. We just want better, cheaper, faster etc.

So the rewards should go to the minority who move us forward but we could end up rewarding mostly those who benefit from their work and lie back consuming?

It’s an interesting thing. It is similar to my research into the brain (any brain, not just humans, even plants, etc.) and how it works. The further you get, the more natural forces win, so don’t look after the poor and infirm. SO humanity and rewards may be anti-natural, or are they? humanity has evolved, and nature did that, and we look after the inform. You see my washing machine head now :slight_smile: I probably should not expose these thoughts :smiley: :smiley:


I see your point. This is the human-centric perspective and it’s very difficult to manage due to our own subjective biases. That’s why I like to think about these things from the network-centric perspective. It’s a lot easier for me to rationalize. Ex: There is this cybernetic thing that will be born and needs to grow and survive in a harsh world. In what way will it interact with humanity and how can it offer economic rewards to incentivise voluntary human assistance to not only survive, but thrive? Hence Pt*.

As for the minority leaders, they will benefit from existence of the network itself, and the tools it enables, to create new things.


I think we too easily dismiss the pragmatism of evolution, both in its coldness and its warmth. Humans look after each other because it has proven evolutionarily effective, we saw how purity weakens the system rather than strengthens it, that diversity wins over racial and cultural purity. The codebreakers of WW2 being a favourite example.

Those purist ideals are human experiments that are shown to fail time and again, but evolution will keep trying them just in case one day they are useful…

Also evolution doesn’t measure efficiency the same way a human does, or human culture does, or human science does. So we need to be very careful drawing any conclusions, and a washing machine head reflects that IMO!



without doubt


Whats all this about washing machines?

To exemplify the point about the rewards going to the unworthy, I just got a badge for a daft wee post that made 60 folk click to see the Github status wheras the real intellectual effort in this thread gets few likes.

Im still lost about the washing machines, though…


Is that reward “unworthy” though? no I don’t think so.
The contribution was was growing awareness, sharing information with others who were obviously interested so it is worthy and deserves a reward.


Yes but it was truly clickbait and I put no real creative effort into it.

Im not so certain that I would have got that no of clicks if I had not obfuscated the fact it was going to a GitHub page.
Similarly for the previous post .

Pre-Dev-Update Thread! Yay! :D - #4770 by Southside

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I guessed they were github pagecs and still clicked. Your creative effort was in finding them and sharing a link in a place where people are interested in that. No mean feat! Show me an AI to do that and we can ban you permanently!


I’ll just change my user name to mole