Proposal: Pay per "Like"

[Ajedi32]

Continuing the discussion from Poll: Should MaidSafe implement PtP (Pay the Producer)?:

@dyamanaka

I voted “Yes, Depending on the Implementation.”

I agree with some of the concerns but also feel we have an opportunity to create an alternative solution. Here’s my thoughts on how I reached this decision.

Q: What if it fails?
A: Then it fails. Innovation rarely comes without the possibility of failure.

Q: What if it breaks or doesn’t work the way we expect?
A: Then we fix it, change it, or scrap it.

Q: Isn’t human feedback the best way to valuate a product or service?
A: Yes, but major networks still use “view count” to determine popularity. Even though some or all views were a negative experience. So they got clever and created a “like/dislike” system to filter out click baits. I’m surprised AD companies still payout on views, knowing about this flaw.

This is where I reached my conclusion.
The intention is promising because it attracts (uploaders) who pay nothing on networks like (youtube, facebook, google). On the SAFE Network, they must pay Safecoin to upload, which could be a deterrent.

PtP compensates uploaders by rewarding them for their effort and expense. After the Network is popular, it may not be as relevant. This is why new businesses hold “Grand Opening Events” to get the ball rolling. This is also the reason I think it should be done at the beginning, or shortly after public release.

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This part is for the implementation options Poll, assuming we have one later. I’m putting my thoughts/ideas here before I forget.

Perhaps, a LIKE System would be a simple and most effective solution.

• It requires human feedback.
• It can incur a micro payment cost in SAFE GB, instead of Safecoin.
• It can be made unique per account, preventing spam.
• It measures positive views more accurately.
• It removes the (File Size VS File Price) problem.

For people concerned about the Safecoin economy, I recommend rewarding SAFE GB as an alternative. By the way, this doesn’t stop: donations, pay per view, subscriptions, or any other revenue steam.

I like this idea, in my mind it’s very similar to Reddit gold, where users can express their like for a bit of content by awarding it with “gold”. It also reminds me of ChangeTip.

Initially I was a bit hesitant about building a PtP system into the network itself, but if it was done this way I actually really like the idea.

[Warren]

A bit like a better version of flattr. Always wanted something where we could pay after the fact and only what and if we wanted. Need to be able to veto the payment.

[smacz]

Need this be built into the network though?

1. What if APPs chose to not use it?
2. What is the further burden on the network?
3. How can this be gamed to break the system?

[justin]

@smacz

How can this be gamed to break the system?

maybe you could go and just like your own content and reward your own content.

[Traktion]

@smacz

Need this be built into the network though?

This seems more like an app to me.

A simple way to tip content creators would be great though. As we can default to use Safecoin easily, a standard app/library to do this would be useful.

Edit: btw, I see no reason why this shouldn’t come out of the user’s account either. No need to socialise this cost to other network users. This will prevent any gaming in the process too.

[justin]

But I do like the idea, so if i could by clicking like here, I would of rewarded you one safe coin.

[smacz]

I like seeing a brain around this place.

Sure, liking your own content is easy, especially since accounts are free to create. (To avoid arguing this point they will at least be painless for those whose sole aim is to game the system)

I forget which, but on reddit about a year or two ago, it was found out that a popular uploader was using bot accounts to upvote all of his posts so that they got more attention. Many have argued that this is why he became a popular uploader in the first place.

The bandwagon persuasive tact is a very powerful one. It’s one that I use even when it’s not quite true - because it works so damn well.

EDIT: By the way, for those of you who are a fan of P2P tipping without network involvement, swing by here and read the executive overview at least. The RFC goes into detail about tipping.

[justin]

If I could farm and be rewarded likes and the rules where I could only use them on public data on safe network to like content. I think it would be bonus and a pull factor for users, just like a rewards card for using the safe network…

edit… so the maths would be eg… 80% farming rewards+ 10% bonus like rewards and 10% app rewards…

[smacz]

You are rewarded “likes” for farming, they’re called Safecoins.

(Sorry about the snarkiness - it just kinda came out)

[justin]

yes that is correct, same as when I get gift certificate worth $20 it only can be converted when it is used.

edit… no in this guy proposal be rewarded in safeGB to have a separate account just for likes…

[smacz]

You surely know why gift certificates are popular, right?

[anon81773980]

Likes incentive the network to become a hivemind. Reddit anyone?

This is asking for disaster product. When building new applications, you need to think about the app psychologically. How does it affect their behavior, and what is the side effects are. The side effects are usually unknown forces that comes into play, it is something that you cannot predict.

Tumblr, sjw cesspool. Patriarchy is opressing meh. I identify myself… TRIGGERING.
Facebook, selfies with 4chan/reddit memes. Scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll.
Reddit, collective hivemind supressed users by downvoting, and collective upvotes. Cheer chomsky, and chev! Nonsense.

Then it even gets sinister, the TOS on facebook, snapshots, and others are invasion acts, that manipulate you, and it can affect your behavior. The more you are obsessed with it, it can put you in a echo chamber where you only hear news in that circle. It incentive users to be ignorant on outside of their box.

I rather have the network to be bare bones with nothingness but to store, and access.

I am fine with this if it is build as an application.

[whiteoutmashups]

@smacz

I like seeing a brain around this place.

Again, where does this need to be rude and condescending come from?

We’re a community here, ok?

[smacz]

My apologies, let me rephrase the statement:

I enjoy participating in intense consideration rather than mindless circlejerking.

Read my PM.

[dyamanaka]

I’ve developed the idea a little more since then and added the following. See the post below, which answers some questions about gaming/exploiting the system.

Could watermarking data fix it all?

Interesting idea! All public data is watermarked by default. This removes one more speed bump for uploaders. This incentive encourages to me use the Network, even thought I have to pay to PUT. One Condition I think human feedback is necessary to assist the Network in determining rewards. The network can easily measure traffic, but doesn’t know if that traffic is (support or curiosity) by consumer. One example could be a popular song that WILL get modified (to steal original uploader’s positi…

[smacz]

Hmm:

@dyamanaka

each LIKE initiates a farming attempt for the watermark address,
[…snip…]
Keep in mind the LIKE is only a farm attempt, not a guaranteed payout.
[…snip…]
LIKING would cost 1 Safecoin. {@smacz: This can be any number of Safecoins for my reasoning}

Confusion ensues. If this costs me 1 Safecoin for them to have less than a 50/50 shot at recieving 1 Safecoin - why don’t we just implement a direct peer-to-peer tipping app?

Keep the core network clean and enhance the functionality.

The only way that I could see it working if it were to be implemented as previously described on these forums (I think flattr was the example).

Have the user set aside an amount of SC to spend on likes for a period of time. During that time frame, any number of likes can be issued. At the end of that period, the SC that was set aside will be divvied up between all of the likes given.

However, I still see that functionality as being an APP/Plugin/Addon to the network, not core network functionality.

[dyamanaka]

@smacz

Confusion ensues. If this costs me 1 Safecoin for them to have less than a 50/50 shot at recieving 1 Safecoin - why don’t we just implement a direct peer-to-peer tipping app?

Answer below…

Why can’t a LIKE pay 1 SC directly to the content owner (watermark address)?
Because then the owner could LIKE their own content for free, making it look like it’s popular when it is not.

I would think some people would be in favor of the Network generating more revenue by having this feature as part of the core. No?

[smacz]

So your end-game is more along the lines of reputation rather than actual profit?

In a way that makes sense. Wherever I go I will always have my “like” reputation and all of my public data (that I choose to have watermarked) will have my “like” wallet address (or whatever). But once again, I can’t really define a need for it to be in the core other than the (admittedly major) fact that it generates revenue for the network (never a bad thing).

While it may have the ability to function in all apps and with all content, that doesn’t necessarily mean that it should be implemented in the core. Think of browser addons, and what their analogy may be in the SAFE Network regarding their interaction with the SAFE Launcher.

Congrats @dyamanaka you’ve at least got me on the fence for this one.

[smacz]

Breaking down human psychology though (in the digital age), isn’t one of the greatest things (on a visceral level) about “likes” the fact that they are completely free? (facebook, twitter, these forums, etc)

[dyamanaka]

Exactly.

These are hidden benefits.

• SAFE Network gains addition revenue stream, while providing a useful service at the core level.
• LIKE can also be used in a voting the system, just remove the farming attempt.
• User feedback is required, which addresses the free market proponents.

EDIT: This system must be in the core, because it triggers a “farming attempt” which can’t be done by an APP. There’s been concern about the SAFE Network paying out more than it receives, which hinders circulation. I think this core service would help increase circulation. Although, there’s no guarantee people will use SAFE Network LIKES.