Practicality and uses of Micro-currencies on SAFE

Continuing the discussion from Dealing with copied content:

Figured this was getting slightly off topic so I would move it here…

Folks who submit good content could be rewarded in micro-currencies Comments could require deposit… Upvotes generate refund, Down-votes send the deposit elsewhere — All kinds of forums and communities could be formed that auto-moderate due to “points systems”

Seems like this is a perfect fit for SAFE as currency is a built in feature with structured data…

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I flagged my own posts as off-topic there, so hoping for a kind moderator to move them over.

I’ll have to sleep on this, so won’t comment much more tonight I think. I’d be inclined with having the micro-coins be not directly connected (colouring) to safecoin. It might produce more volatility, and network overhead; but also as @Hoppy pointed out; if the coins are confusing (even for the developers, as it might be with coloring), then the lack of usability makes it all useless.

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Having said that I won’t comment anymore, but how awesome would it be if every application has by-default its own token too… :slight_smile:

I’d prefer them to be called tokens in this case though, as the dynamic is different?

[Post copied from other thread, and deleted there]

One problem with this alt-coin/painted coin is that some artists do not want to be identified now or later in order to exchange the alt/painted coin for SAFEcoin or traditional money.

Privacy is lost if you rely on alt/painted coin

Keep it simple is a better way and let the market choose the correct uploader to get their content from. The pirates that upload may get some coin, but that encourages the real artist to upload good quality media and the people who would have paid for the item outside of SAFE will prefer to go to the real artist (in general) uploaded material.

Also we will see an end to people owning the 8 billion dollar ipods, rather many/most? will just use SAFE Network and simply have “playlists” and the various artists will be rewarded on an ongoing basis.

App specific token would have benefits for some apps (not artists) and great if optional. But there is a certain appeal to have the option to be paid in the network currency, even if it is because the app builder wishes the resource purchasing ability it provides.

I don’t know that privacy is lost per se – often these would be used to build reputation on an a site… And generally when you are building a reputation you don’t want to be totally anonymous – pseudoneymous, perhaps. Sometimes you want your reputation to match your resume and don’t want anonymity at all.

I am not thinking “colored SAFEcoin” so much as a token that looks and acts and is verified by the same mechanism as SAFEcoin that is actually an AppCoin for whatever community it is used in.

Reddit for example was talking about building their own currency… It makes a lot of sense. Being a valuable contributor could be profitable, earn you rights, respect and influence… Being a turkey could slow you down to the point where you cannot afford to be a nuisance any longer…

By using consensus algorithms to manage all of this you could get quality self-moderation with little or no human input aside from deciding prices, payments, thresholds etc. That would become quite a science…

Using SAFEcoin by itself has Scaling problems. You can reward the model railroad guy with the same currency that you reward Bob Dylan, but most likely uncle Ned isn’t into it for the money, and a few nickels worth of SAFEcoin isn’t going to make the model railroad forum one ounce better. SAFEcoin is still important in that it allows the forum to subsist – but aside from that, it isn’t a community building tool.

One of the problems with Forums is that they are often a lot more valuable to the community than they are to the curator… Automated curation would help many communities thrive…

My understanding of the Structured data was from the RFC – Dont know the status of that yay or nay. https://github.com/maidsafe/rfcs/blob/master/active/0000-Unified-structured-data.md

As these data types are now self validating and may contain different information, such as new protocols, rdf/owl data types, the limit of new data types and ability to link such data is extrely scalable. Such protocols could indeed easily encompass token based systems (a form of 'crypto-currency'), linked data, natural language learning databases, pre-compilation units, distributed version control systems (git like) etc.

You could probably pre-mine these and confirm their serial number in a registry – Or you could use some sort of Hierarchal deterministic schema to issue them as needed.

Please don’t take this question as any criticism

If an artist was to choose between the currency of the network which has real visible value that can be exchanged for cash AND a token that will have value depending on who and how much somebody will exchange for the token. What would the artist choose?

For good/bad artists, why not have a ratings application. The artist can list their work/art into the appropriate categories and people can use the ratings app for both a search engine of songs/movies/art to choose from and with it the ratings/comments for that piece of work. An artist would also have their own section with their works listed there too. If the app also made it easy for a person to build/add to their “play list” then this can help automate the ratings.

And there is no reason that there could not be 2 or more of these apps competing. Maybe that app can issue tokens for artists based on links followed (why I am not sure).

This then allows the creator of works (uploaders) to be rewarded in the network’s currency (or other common currency built into SAFE) and ALSO have their work rated.

Also this helps solve the issue of “pirates” because I would expect that most people wishing to build their play lists would use the app to help build that list using original works (hopefull high quality).

To ask the core code of farming to pay out in tokens rather than a %age of farming rate would require the creation of a special SD that acts like a alt-coin. It would be so much simpler in concept for it to be a %age of the network currency. When the “split SAFEcoin” is introduced then the payout could be in terms of the lesser value coin making the payments more probable with each GET, but worth the same overall.

Forums can simply use their own tokens without the need for the SAFE network core farming code to reward creators in tokens.

in Conclusion
I personally think that the rewards for uploading need to be in coins (network currency) and ratings separate since it will be hard for the network to keep track of GETs on each chunk for ratings purposes. Rewarding in tokens increases farming complexity due to there being an extra SD to be dealt when its not needed. Ratings can be built with App(s) that provide search/info/links/rate/etc for each upload and artist and build their playlists. The App then also allows people to find the original versions of the works rather than some copier’s version.

Keep the additional complexity at the App level whenever possible. It keeps the potential for errors in the core network code to a minimum

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I am not suggesting any change to the current farming schema, artist rewards or the like.

It just seems to me that If I understand the unified data structure (And I very well might not) It would be rather easy to build tokens for whatever you desired without having to re-invent the wheel. That is a very powerful feature for AppBuilders…

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That is my understanding as well, even alt-coins

I am only suggesting that the place to code all these various uses is at the app level.

Not disagreeing with that… Although I don’t think there is any rule against an alt-coin for the sake of an altcoin on SAFE.

I would just like verification that my understanding is correct – That SAFEcoin is a unified data structure, and it is validated in a certain way - and that if my app creates UDS’s of it’s own they can be a SAFEcoin style AltCoin rather automatically… If so, that is super cool. If not, I would like my misunderstandings pointed out…

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At the moment safecoin is a SD type known to vaults (they generally dont care SD type and treat all the same). So the vault network can confirm safecoin creation through it’s steps (created at a PmidManager group -> NaeManage -> close to farm attempt -> NaeManagers (close to safecoin address) -> back to Original group) this gives a load of security and makes it very hard to game.

Due to this then coloured coins may not have the same security (but so we need it, we are being ultra cautious here).

So I would say at the moment coloured coins are not able to be secured as effectively as safecoins. This does not mean the cannot, but we do need to look deeper there, of course after we get everything else running :slight_smile:

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I’m still trying to understand how the Safecoin economy will work regarding any commodities except those directly related to the operation of the network, such as disk space and bandwidth. Is it feasible for “microeconomies” such as those built with Counterparty, like Adam Levine’s

to operate on the SAFE network for content monetization?

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I very much like the idea. So what if an artist does not get rewarded in safecoin, but to e.g., Bob-Dylan coin - automating a counter party colouring of the safecoin into an owner-colored coin?

some thoughts: a fake-uploader would be rewarded in fake-uploader coin; which might be a way to discourage it. The question is then, how does Bob Dylan eat from his Bob Dylan coin he receives?

Perhaps he can sell concert tickets (discounted / only) in Bob Dylan coin, so fans need to exchange fiat / safecoin / bitcoin for Bob Dylan coin to get the tickets (can be automated in the exchange) ?

So a fake-uploader would have to find a way to “valuate” his fake-coins. Or if an artist hires an outsource clicker/GETter company to boost his earnings, he would simply devaluate his own coin, as he’d have more coins than he can exchange towards his real-life fan base. It could decentralise the “maecenas” supporting the artist.

It is VERY FAR fetched :smile:

breaking it down:

  1. the network would reward the artist but disconnects it from the value of the network.
  2. it is then the responsibility of the artist to valuate his coin in real life

Ben, I agree with you that these are “far fetched” ideas! Ultimately the market will decide, and even some good ideas fail because they are too difficult for the median user to understand, or because clever/evil users figure out ways to game the system.

What I’m trying to get at is to what extent economies based on OTHER tokens of value than Safecoin can “run” on the Safecoin network. Of course Safecoins will accrue value as more people use the network, but specifically regarding these experimental economies, such as LTBCoin, can they operate on this network as an alternative to the internet as we know it? How about something like

http://mediagoblin.org/

they have a large amount of code devoted to this area. Could they move to the Safe network?

I have been thinking about this a lot too.

It should be rather simple to create currency tokens on SAFE… Just create structured data objects and give them an owner, right? The uses of those are fairly limitless when it comes to creating social microeconomies… Any website can use these for “karma points” or for “vesting” or any number of other things.

SAFEcoin ought to be in large part about the SAFEnetwork, but any number of things can be moderated with their own microcurrencyies.

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I’ve really not given this enough thought to comment at all. Two ways I can think of, both with very big open questions towards technical possibility, beneficial/adverse effects on the original safecoin and the network, are:

  1. color a safecoin; the most clear paint available on the network (I can currently think of) is a client-id; this would lock safecoins in coloured coins; and what is entirely unclear to me: under which conditions would the network care to “wash off” the colouring - if it doesn’t; would we not run short on original safecoins by pollution? I can’t see it add up though.

  2. implement the ability for the network to mint new coins (again coloured by client-id / owner), not backed by / linked to the safecoin farming. What is the network overhead on this coin galore? Are these coins solidly represented by some “commodity” ?

there is just far more questions then answers when I think about coloring coins; I have not thought enough about all this to form any good ideas. Sorry.

To really enable this the SAFE network needs to have a new concept; i.e. it is not a Safecoin, but it is not a normal structured data either: it should be a structured data that can change ownership, but the owner cannot change “the identity of the coin”; (for a normal SD, if you are the owner there are no restrictions on what you can rewrite in the SD).

so open questions

  1. who when how mints these coins?
    an answer, but not correct or the only : farmed/minted by the network, on get’s?
  2. what is the end cycle, can they be burnt/deleted and what should the network do with that?

Well, my understanding of Safecoin is miniscule, but at this point it seems to me that it will operate ONLY as an incentive for users to allocate computing resources. It seems as if it might be “biting off more than can be chewed” to attempt to involve it as a currency for content. The whole issue of coloring coins etc. seems to me to get confusing very quickly, even for people who are developers of this stuff. So perhaps the best thing would be to make it easy for 100 competing microeconomies to compete on the network, without Safecoin getting involved?

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I think a colored coin with a embedded file attached as a read only file would be great on a blockchain on maidsafe. I could purchase a music file from the artist and own that file, and then resell the file/coin to a friend or use a exchange as we do when we buy a music cd. the concept would be a virtual/physical object. essentially the wallet would be used as a player on the maidsafe network…
If I was an artist I could create my own crypto-currency and wallet and create a 1000 coins with a file attached then put it on the market for purchase for $1 each for example for the first 100 coins and hold the rest in my own wallet, if demand increases and the price my art becomes value and i could release more on a exchange. now my coin is worth $2 or in value of safe coins. over ten years for example a Beatles classic could be worth ten dollar worth of safe coins, who knows.

A app like n-99 could be used to promote the artist work if needed and essentially could be created as an exchange.

yes people could still scrap the file, but a torrented file could have no value for the user and be worthless. the owner of the file would have incentive to promote the value of the music file for resale.

I could go on forever in the economic value in a idea of colored coins, so be interested in reading where this thread goes.

If a content is coming from cache, this content will no longer earn safecoins. So even if you offered Bob Dylan and millions listened per day, does that mean that it will be cached and Bob stops making money from his content?

This means that people can make something and go to market immediately, without setting up an account with some place and going through any vetting. Make it, put it on the network, and for what it is worth to people it will be rewarded.

To add:

SAFE solves the problem because someone’s boredom wont wipe out the only existing copy of the data. In SAFE unlike in torrents, there is a healing process so even if someone turns off their computer you can still access the content. So I’d rather release content here, where I can get it easily, deliver it easily, and automatically be rewarded for whatever impact the content has for people.

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