Poll: Should MaidSafe implement PtP (Pay the Producer)?


Hey, so if I GET data that I oppose - on a philosophical level or otherwise, I’m still inadvertently rewarding those who put that data up there?

Are you trying to encourage trolls, clickbait and advertising? Ridiculous.


I don´t agree on @smacz “ridicuous” part, but @Tim87 isn´t your point much more an argument for rewarding per like instead of per GET?


Have you never used bittorent before? Have you never checked out the pirate bay or downloaded anything? Have you done no pirating at all? If you have not then how can you argue against pirating if you know nothing about it?

Pirating 101. A clone of a file is spotted pretty fast. One clue is the download count. Popular files are downloaded A LOT. If the file is only downloaded by a few people its either really obscure or of low quality. Second clue would be the filename, which would be much more relevant on the SAFE network. You can get a dozen copies of the same thing by just changing the file name, combine this with popularity count and you get a better reading. There’s also user reviews. Not every tracker and file curator has them but they can be really handy. Then there’s also the guess, check and if nessesary trash method. If you don’t know you download a file or part of a file, open and look at it. If it’s what you expect you keep it, if it’s not you delete it. On SAFE that would mean unlinking yourself to it and thus reducing it’s popularity. If people just offer the same product as the guy beside them they’ll be less popular. Why watch the same music video over again with a different file name? Got it, seen it, got it, got it, seen it, download it, download it, junk junk, got it, seen it… etc.

So? People upload material to youtube, either their own or pirated. And youtube monetizes this content via ads. What’s your point? That making money off of content curration is bad or immoral? Even if PtP didn’t get immplimented there would be no way to stop such a thing from happening. In fact it would probably happen more.

First “heinous content” is entirely subjective as I pointed out. Second anyone with any marketing skills would point out that SAFE would reward ANY uploader. That includes poor starving artists, scientists, educators, businessmen posting on their websites, EVERYONE. Imagine running a business and getting paid just to maintain the website. The more content you post and the more hits you get the more money you make. JUST from PtP, nevermind your salary on top of that. Also imagine if a web developer walletmarked all the websites he made for various businesses. All their hits for all their content would result in PtP revenue for him. Yeah caching would kick in but if they keep him on and have him run maintainance he can keep walletmarking content. Which gets into blogging, artists and music creation. Point is you could turn that “PR nightmare” into a dreamland pretty fast.

I suggested and said nothing of the sort. I simply refuted the point. Drama queen much?

Lol I’m not the one who got into a snit about some misconstrued implication that you didn’t have the manners to ask about first before jumping to conclusions and accusing me of ad hominum concerning a rather whimiscal, bit sarcastic and GENERALLY, not specifically, addressed post. Yes I quoted you. I quoted you because you’re the most recent one bitching about the antiquated subject matter.

But it IS outmoded, narrow minded, and to use it is to be a slave to political correctness and it is just an excuse. I’m sorry your highness but it is. Now I can get into the knitty gritty and tear apart your points piece by piece but when I threw down that post I was just feeling rather exasperating and the whole thing was “Oh really? This again? Do I really need to get into it?” I was willing to let the whole thing slide as human beings just being completely idiotic like they tend to be sometimes but hey if you want to throw down the gauntlet and have me take your points apart so be it. The truth is IP is outmoded. When the printing press was invented ideas became decentralized. That’s when they created copyright. And it worked fine for awhile. But then along came the internet which totally fubared copyright with pirating and massive global decentralization. NOW with SAFE even more decentralization and freedom of information is being implimented and that’s scary as hell for someone used to the idea of controlling the flow of information in order to make a living. Just like the priests of old were threatened by the printing press. This is a useful contribution because it takes history into account. And you might call it “polemic” but it’s addressing the real issues.


How would you know if my whole argument is only an excuse? Your point of view seem to be ideological, so (as I repeatedly said) I don´t see why you join a debate since you already know the answers. And yes, alleging that a person is only using an argument as an excuse (for another shady intention) instead of tackling the persons argument is ad hominem. Same as “drama-queen” is ad hominem.


@Artiscience i didn’t see where you answered @Blindsite2k 's question:

Have you never used bittorent before? Have you never checked out the pirate bay or downloaded anything? Have you done no pirating at all? If you have not then how can you argue against pirating if you know nothing about it?

A priori reasoning is only of use in the absence of empirical evidence, but in the case of bittorrent there’s a vast community.

We need a few seasoned pirateers in this discussion. I’ve used it from time to time to acquire learning materials, or to check out movies and tv shows without paying them. @Blindsite2k is evidently more experienced.


Also experience from NNTP (news servers) can help to. I know that people seek out the original clean uploads of files and quickly learn to ignore all the copies others upload.


I think most people when challenged have agreed that we should test, or have at least stopped saying PtP should be dropped now. But if you look back, there are numerous comments from people saying PtP should have been dropped already etc. I’m not going to go through and create a list of names.

If you don’t agree this has been the case, that’s fair enough, but I am not going to single anyone out in order to prove my point - we can just disagree. It really doesn’t matter because the point of my post was to say there is no point people just posting opinions when we cannot resolve this just with talk, and that we should test.

If we’re in agreement that this should be tested out, then there’s really no more to say IMO so let’s leave it until then.


First off, I don´t have to answer anyone´s question and I clearly explained why I didn´t go into a lengthy discussion. Also, following up to the ad hominem series, being framed as unexperienced is just another irrelevant point in the debate. @Blindsite2k suggested I don´t have experience, you too, but in fact you don´t know anything about me and my use of bittorrents. It´s also none of your business and imho irrelevant to the discussion.

@Blindsite2k argument is basically abouit crowd intelligence, however not about genuinity and it´s kind of simplistic imho. Popularity and reviews are important indicators for users, however they are (A) not necessarily reliable and (B) don´t say anytthing about originality. The impact of platforms is crucial. A torrent file put on my personal webpage and the same file on the Pirate Bay affects the popularity massively. Of course, it is possible that people flag content where the uploader is not the creator, however, the question (I thought) we discussed was, whether most people care. How does piracy demonstrate people would? People are interested in whether the content is what the label is, whether the files are free from viruses and trojans, point taken, but where is proof for the interest in rewarding the original creators. I only see speculations that this will matter and guide the behaviour of the majority of users. I still don´t see why I should expect that other than mere wishful thinking.

And to finish this post: referencing to experience is also anything but a fallacy ad verecundiam that imho doesn´t belong to a proper debate (particularly if you have any idea whether it is true or false…)


Uhm…there is a difference between being “against testing” and thinking “that this should be tested”, isn´t it? I personally don´t mind if it´s tested, it´s also neither my nor your business, but MaidSafes business since they are doing the work, so my opinion doesn´t matter.

I personally think there is still a lot to say and I hope I have been clear on the reasons even if you disagree with my judgement. If the moderators think this thread should be closed they should close it and I will have to deal with that. As long as that isn´t the case I don´t see why I shouldn´t put down my arguments since they are supposed to be part in the reflection of pros and cons.


It is hardly an appeal to authority if he cites the reasons in detail, which you can easily cross-check by searching around.

Asking your level of experience is necessary to calibrate the discussion, so as not to over or under-explain. It is highly relevant.

Argument by analogy to in-some-ways similar real-world examples, such as bittorrent, is also highly relevant to the discussion.


I don’t know how PtP economics could be tested at non-scale. It is a exponential scale catastrophe - and in small scale tests there is only so far that the simulation can reach. Also many of the behaviors that could trigger the catastrophe are illegal, thus difficult to test. (Upload a leaked copy of the Star Wars 8 prior to theater release for example)


You’re joking, right? If it works with a handful of nodes then it works. “It” being an implementation of XOR space.

In response to the question implied by “I don’t know” - by looking at similar examples, most notable being Bitcoin, which grew out of a geek toy with cypherpunks doing as much destructive testing as they could until its robustness was established after 8 months or so. For its first year it was almost worthless, until someone paid for a pizza with some thousands of it, as a lark, and it was off to the races.


This is a good point - I don’t either.

I’m not saying testing is the answer, or the only thing (@Artiscience) that we should do here. Of course, there may be other useful things to say, so don’t take my challenge to people as saying only testing now. I agree I sounded like that, so to clarify, I’m saying let’s stop just bandying about opinions if we can’t have proper reasoned discussions. I’m quite happy for people to try and demonstrate that this system will be gamed, but until they do, I don’t see those against PtP have anything to add to the debate. That is not to say there isn’t anything worth debating… I’m just not seeing anything meaningful other than educating those new to the discussion at this point. Those against make assumptions. I’m not for PtP, but for trying PtP, because I think creating something that works better than the status quo (which already suffers from all the things levelled against PtP as far as I can tell). The questions are therefore 1) Does it work (ie not break the network), and 2) Does it offer a sufficiently useful alternative to make it worthwhile including. Right now it looks to me as if this can only be established through testing or a reasoned discussion based on some actual proposals - not endless PtP good v PtP bad opinion repetition. So by all means continue useful discussion and education, but I don’t see the value in trying to judge the issue at this point.


Here’s the thing I see: SAFE network can exist without Safecoin, just as the Tor network exists with mostly volunteers’ hosts. So at minimum SAFE can be a kind of Tor, with a similar scale of usage. And indeed, it probably will be something like that for the first few months or years. But it can do so much more, potentially, than Tor, that some form of currency seems inevitable.


No. I am not really talking about the XOR space – I am talking about the economic model. If you pay once to upload and the farmers (And perhaps unloaders) are expected to be paid for delievering those files for eternity, there is a big difference between having 500 users and 2 billion doing the GETS. The strains on the network are exponentially different, and the reimbursement needs to be able to keep up. After the initial put, There is no source of additional income but massively disproportional expenses being accrued…

Perhaps this is trivial extra bandwidth, and the network will continue on it’s merry way – but if SAFE is the “New free Netflix” then ISP’s are going to put a pretty tight cap on outgoing bandwidth pretty fast, and it will become expensive to farm. At the scale of 500 the network will not flip any tripwires, but those tripwires do exist, and at full scale there is a significant risk of setting them off.


Also, the catastrophes take time to manifest. There will definitely be a time in the beginning of the test when the economics will look like everyone will be getting safecoin. However, given time, the value of the currency, and the amount in the recycle bin will trend downward. Only after it hits a critical turning point though.

Similarly to what you proposed that Free GETs won’t fly - at scale, without well-thought out rationale, it starts to fall apart at critical mass.


@jreighley No doubt the economic model will undergo adjustment, which is all the more reason to have forks running and natural selection weed them out.

What tripwires, exactly? There are many ISPs and it is a competitive industry. Also, the cost of bandwidth is subject to a power law similar to Moore’s Law (which was the premise of this video) so there is a competitive pressure for all-you-can-eat service offerings.


ISP’s are not a competitive market in the US. Or most of the world. You need government permission to string fiber. I have two choices, both of them Government sanctioned monopolies. There are some other “alternatives” but they are significantly inferior.

Markets work because scarcity can be regulated with price. SAFE’s economic model is broken in my view because GETs will be the ones putting strain on the system, and the only mechanism that the network has for generating revenue is by charging for PUTS. (Which isn’t the problem In the vast majority of the cases) As a result my theory is that it is very likely that the network will be too expensive to use unless you have something very valuable that you care to keep safe from hackers.


I never questioned that analagoies such as bittorrent are relevant to the discussion, did I? The question regarding my knowledge of pirated content was clearly rhetorical and your judgement that he is “evidently more experience” judgemental. You didn´t know, you still don´t know, you didn´t ask. So, maybe let´s leave it here. I don´t see how this going to become a productive exchange.


Sheer projection, that.