Democratic polls or any other politics, are not good to resolve what is best for all. At best they are a measure of division and dissent. Politics is a fudge and is no good as the basis of anything.
Divide and conquer etc is a tactic predicated on such presentation of dilemmas.
The fundamentals are that for good reason. Once the network provides opportunity for everyone, then we can have politics.
This sounds very cool until you remember that 10k people control 10% of the future currency of all of humanity (potentially)…
So if you think it’s fair for such a small part of humanity to own so much, then I think we can at least get rid of the proven bad players who are our enemy…
How many of the coins are legally there? Yes there not their
At 10 to 80 MAID for fees over some 5 years amounts to a decent amount of MAID. Yes I know the argument they would have sold them immediately, BUT they also could have been saving a lot of those fees for covering unpredictable problems where someone lost their coins due to Poloniex’s error.
How many are legally from fees. If anyone claims they sold their coins taken in fees then you have to PROVE it or else be accused of illegally stopping them from getting safecoin for those.
How are you to determine how much of those coins are from fees and how many are from people who did not get back their coins. How are you to determine those?
if the community decides to start its own network there is no problem. Poloniex can take their money in the MaidSafe network (of course there can be only 1 node or 0 node there…). The message is very simple. If you fork with us, we will fork with you too, double.
The idea of punishment is to stop future crimes. If not, the SAFE community will punish you and you will pay, losing everything…
I thought you were talking of forking the tool, not the whole network
If just the tool then you could have duplication of safecoin and/or they will use the official tool
If fork the network then you are dividing the people, and do they trust the community or the authors
As far as I understand, there can only be 1 safecoin. Ie the tool should be built into the vault itself?
If there is a second tool, won’t it create a second network? So if the community forks the tool there will be only 1 network, but if Poloniex tries to claim they will create a second network? Or not?
Hey friend, maybe you’re right. Certainly I make mistakes often enough, so I always remind myself that I may be on the wrong side of the history when participating in a discussion…
No harm pushing at the boundary of what is possible… and there’s merit in thinking through what will tempt others from time to time. SAFE is strong because it adheres to natural responses to challenge, rather than any manmade bypasses and quick fixes, which are all too common in the real world. The slippery errors that others make, we need to learn to understand and defend against. Certain errors of this kind are ones that too many require they witness the consequences of before learning the difference. Reasons that politics and economics; truth and justice; etc, are such a mess… because fundamentals are not appreciated. Error; learn; repeat.
OK from what people said, @Dimitar this still needs to be answered before you take another step.
Number of coins?
Legal/morally right coins from fees etc?
How many coins are from people who they refused to refund?
How many coins are legit abandoned by people? (typical methods, forget, lost passwords, death, etc)?
EDIT: and fractions of coins up to a few coins that are less than the w/d fee. These are still legit for Poloniex to keep since that is the cost of trading.
Until you have real figures for these values, you cannot devise a method to potentially deal with it.
And I agree with @davidpbrown that where do you stop? What about coins lost from the NZ exchange potentially stolen by a cracker. What about people who were tricked out of their coins? People who stole private keys off people (cracking PC, tricking them, etc)
Yes this is a discussion and no one AFAIK is criticising you for exploring this. I am sure most people are outraged by Poloniex not returning coins
Personally, I would remove all Poloniex coins. Including legally acquired. Don’t steal from us. We will fork you. Completely. About the others, all we can find.
So, is it okay if they steal “just” 0.45% of the total coins? Or 0.46%? 0.47%? You see where I’m going, right? Fork them… Fork them completely…
Without regrets, because these are people who refuse to talk to you. They think they are untouchable. That they can do whatever they want. That the MaidSafe company is helpless.
But SAFE is not one company. SAFE is a community of free people and these free people can choose what software to run on their computers. SAFE are the people. And these people will fork you if you fork with them… at least that’s how I feel it
Now I did not say that, did I. I was giving the figures, not saying anything about it. Anything that is discussed has to be driven by factual information, without the figures then its all emotion.
But as asked before where do you stop? There are other instances of exchanges keeping coins. Bittrex (USA) also kept coins that people did not withdraw quick enough. Cyptopia (NZ) also have not returned coins.
You need to apply better logic than “They are bad, lets stop them”
And of course just one set of nodes will deny you the ability to stop them.
Also I do not think it will be a tool built into the network, so this idea would not work anyhow since there is no ability to do it
Dimitar your time is so valuable and important. Poloniex is stealing it away now. Righteous anger and indignation are useful but they have their limits.
I think it would be good if we used the right term confiscate instead of steal or rob. Poloniex confiscated funds after a specific date given in advance.
For example as mentioned earlier, MT Gox stole funds as clients funds where gone without notice.
Perhaps if coinholders can provide evidence to Maidsafe that their coins were delisted and they were told by Poloniex that the coins are lost, these coins could be held by Maidsafe and not returned to Polo as safecoin? Having said that, I accept the argument that Polo has legal coins. It’s a real tough topic without precedent, because of the lack of regulation.