I want to vote… but I’ve always been a lurker and don’t have enough reputation…
Don’t use a sidechain but an L2 like ZKsync or Loopring. You get cheap transactions + the security of the mainnet.
The poll is limited to level 1 users and up, because in the past we have had attempts to manipulate polls. Spend a few hours reading and browsing the forum and you will reach level 1
Privacy. Security. Freedom
Yet more awesome work by @Sotros25, thank you. We may differ on how we view CEXs but you sure know how to get stuff done.
@dirvine is there any steps towards this? I am asking because if Wrapped is a non-event or far off in the future, then I have another very simple actionable proposal that I can write up that could bring us ERC20 within weeks with all the upside very little downside for Maidsafe (time, legal, fees).
At risk of sounding like a broken record and since these concerns have not been addressed as not an issue, this is the driving motivation for pushing this:
- Native Safe Tokens are unlikely to list on CEXs as pure privacy tokens are FATF banned worldwide.
- Native Safe Tokens cannot be listed on existing DEXs, DEXs today only work with the protocol they live on. OmniDex for Omni, Uniswap for ERC20, BEP20 for BSC etc etc.
- Due to point 2, Native Safe Tokens will have to list on a native DEX, which probably means execution layer on Safe will need to exist first. The time frame risk on this is very high.
- Mobile only users will be shut out of SN without ability to mine tokens and limited mobile CEX access to MaidSafeTokens. No access for everyone at launch.
- MaidSafeTokens are better kept in cold storage under Omni, there is no incentive to move them into liquidity provision. With poor CEX history of theft and loss of coins there is a huge disincentive. This further restricts access for everyone.
Edit: 6 - Cross chain DEXs need… blockchains. For Safe Network has very good chance of not being compatible. Maid is a different matter of course.
Agreed. (10 chars.)
Yes intros have been made. Now the meetings, decisions, agreements and any legals etc. are now with me and the team. It will be a lot of work (always is), lot of meetings, cost money distract from launch and that’s the price I hear most folk say now is worth paying.
So we are paying that price and launch will be a bit slower, but it’s all a balance. A bunch of work for intros and setting up docs etc. as well as paying for some legals has been done by the community so far (also directly by individuals).
The bulk of the work will fall on the MaidSafe team now though and this is the world of crypto these days. A legal entity needs to exist to do deals in the decentralised world We all know why this is, here comes the fine print and much more. As Sinatra says, that’s life
I don’t see any way forward but relent a bit and defocus launch from 100% to something less. If I could control physics I would, but … at least I can drink much more coffee
I hope I don’t sound ungrateful and certainly @Sotros25 @Mightyfool @piluso to name a few have done a huge amount of legwork at their own cost here, and much more. However, the actual amount of work and responsibility left is, well … not insignificant.
David, I am happy you are also seeing the importance of this. Is there any expected timeframe for this to crystalize? Really appreciate it!
I see the potential importance of many things. It’s what makes this community strong, we all do, but not all from the same angles. So brilliant.
Unsure, there are meetings scheduled. The I imagine it will start with an NDA so I cannot then tell you folks anything. Maybe not, but usually it’s the script. It’s the other world then, the one you won’t find me able to be open with.
I am totally and utterly trying to avoid this affecting the rest of the team, but it will unavoidably dump loads of admin on Sharon and that’s not great at all right now.
Money first, save the kids later it’s that important now, or is it? I can push myself to past exhaustion here, but I am not letting those kids down and I am desperate to not let the team down, never mind the wider world. Only so far I can split myself though.
Let’s see what happens every single step that’s not launch is the most important
Get on a USA exchange
and on it goes. Not doing any of the steps means total doom! (I highly doubt any such claim)
I am contemplating all this in real time to try and provide the best I can, but I am never gonna let down the folk we set out to help the most and we are potentially risking that for some short term gains here.
The reason being, these are not the only games in town, but I don’t have the energy right now to divulge debate or outline the much bigger plan.
100% launch, 100% launch, it’s hard now to say it more clearly and now I feel a hint we could slow down is so well received, but worry not the best decisions will be taken.
Just watch github over the next few days for examples of what we can do given space and time and community help on testing. Then we can all wonder, what matters most, finish the race or stop and grab some food cause after all we can argue you need food to live and those kinda conversations.
No offence to anyone, but the pace we are currently working at is beyond fast, we are all at our limits. I hope you can all see that and I hope we can all understand the focus required, the hours required and the absolute search for every last bit of adrenalin to launch this.
Then we have to do a wee bit more, one wafer-thin mint, go on go on, of course, ye will
Anyway priorities eh !! It’s what makes us real.
Maybe I see and understand 10% of what you are doing and the speed you guys are working at and that already gives me the feeling you guys are running a non-stop marathon. As always my compliments to you and the team, plus tons of respect and gratitude
Well I’d be the first to say back off and leave it for later, or never. Health comes first. If you say ERC20 or similar is not not going to happen I personally would zip my lip not mention it again, you are the CEO after all.
I certainly never called for doom, but have laid out as clearly and simply as possible the reasons “for” and invited anyone to shoot them down as overblown, unrealistic or similar: here, here, here, plus other places over the many years this non-decision has been going on. @happybeing gave it a go with Mechanical Turk DEX like solution after SN after launch, Jim said what he has been saying for a few years now. None of the concerns have been adequately addressed or dismissed as unwarranted which actually would be great if it happened, I don’t like these kinds of posts, either. I sense there is a negative feedback loop going on here for years: No liquidity or price discovery for Omni Maid => MaidSafe has no spare resources or capacity => Team has to par down to core engineers only in a make-or-break dash for MVP launch => No capacity to foster liquidity or price discovery for Maid…
…now launch is on the horizon, hooray! Oh, still No liquidity or price discovery for Maid => No spare resources or capacity => Network Launch with few to no ways for people, especially biggest segment mobile to onboard.
If there is some other secret plan that solves most of those concerns/real problems, then that is great cancel the Wrapped project and ERC20 access to existing liquidity/on and off ramps for sure, sincerely.
Then, make a ERC-20 token, and sell it on Uniswap.
But you will not do this, why? The token you made has no value.
First is value, second is liquidity.
If you want to play a liquidity game, there are numerous tokens out there. And play a game there.
For me this project is not just money game for instant profit. The value (working product) is everything, if we get there, liquidity and users will automatically follow.
@bridge, do you know what’s funny?
I see dozens of start-ups every year (I have an advertising agency) thinking that the hardest thing is to start a business and bring a product to market.
Yes, this is difficult, but it depends only on their efforts. What is even more difficult, however, is the thing that does not depend on them - the people for whom the product is.
People will not automatically come to use the product. Everyone has a life. Everyone has habits. Everyone already uses what the Safe network offers.
Yes, what we use is not ours, there are intermediaries, there are inefficiencies, but it works.
So as brutal as it sounds, it’s not enough to have a perfect product, you have to advertise it.
The price advertises the product. Bitcoin is changing the world because of its high price. The price shows that Bitcoin is useful. The price of the Safe tokens will show the same.
Privacy. Security. Freedom
Hope you will continue to trust your gut on this. You have the full picture and at the end of the day only you can assess and make the decision with all the information.
A surprising lack of numbers and analysis in this topic. I’ll try some.
The average daily trade volume on bittrex is 1.675 BTC for the past 365 days - calculated from https://api.bittrex.com/v3/markets/MAID-BTC/candles/TRADE/DAY_1/recent
This is an average daily volume of about $84K (assuming a btc price of 50K usd/btc).
There are about 580 trading pairs on uniswap that have higher 24h volume than that: Uniswap (v2) Trade Volume, Trade Pairs, and Info | CoinGecko
There are about 100 trading pairs on sushiswap that have higher volume than that: Sushiswap Trade Volume, Trade Pairs, and Info | CoinGecko
There are about 220 trading pairs on pancakeswap that have higher volume than that: PancakeSwap Trade Volume, Trade Pairs, and Info | CoinGecko
Looking at liquidity
Bittrex orderbook currently has
0.374 btc to go from 1802 sat/maid up to 1840 (this is the +2% liquidity) ie $18.7K
0.4 btc to go from 1774 sat/maid down to 1738 (this is the -2% liquidity) ie $20K
Looking at the 600 most traded pairs on uniswap (by 24h volume)
the average +2% liquidity is about $163K
the average -2% liquidity is also about $163K
There are 333 pairs in the top 600 that have more than $20K liquidity. This puts us at about 56% chance of having more liquidity on uniswap than on bittrex. Note however that any liquidity on uniswap would be an overall increase in liquidity.
Based on these numbers, I’d say DEXs would probably have about a 50% chance of doubling the liquidity of the current maidsafecoin market. What is harder to know is the cost to achieve that, and the efficacy of alternative liquidity options.
These stats are full of complications, eg a year of daily trade volume measured in btc is then converted using todays usd price, which is not the same as the average daily usd trade volume. I’m not going to list all the ways this analysis is subtly ‘broken’, but I feel it should give some useful point of comparison despite the potential for these sorts of flaws to creep in. I’m going for an incremental improvement to the decision, not a perfect report.
Aside from that, I’m undecided on the proposal.
When I read this topic I substitute the word ‘liquidity’ with ‘demand’ since I believe almost everyone in this topic really only wants to increase ‘demand’ and has no real interest in ‘liquidity’. I appreciate in some circumstances an increase in liquidity will lead to an increase in demand, but to use them interchangeably is verging on dishonest.
@mav are you familiar with how the different copies of UniSwap work?
For example, do you know that they are interconnected and there are aggregators like https://matcha.xyz/.
If you use them the sale / buy goes through the most advantageous lividity pool (you can even go Uniswap-> SushiSwap-> UniSwap for example).
Also important to note that if we add different pairs like ERC20 MAID / Storj, all of the people trading with one of the two pairs can go through that pair if the price is better, which means that people trading Storj will see MAID in their orders.
Privacy. Security. Freedom
Not sure why you talk of dishonesty.
I think there’s some vague and some questionable reasoning in the thread, or at least reasoning I don’t follow. I agree that many are indeed only interested in this and similar proposals in order to create demand, or rather to increase the price significantly. I don’t include everyone in that, just to be clear, there’s also a genuine belief that this will help secure and ‘advertise’ the network which I don’t disagree with. I haven’t wanted to get into arguing for or against this proposal at this point, just wishing to explore it.
What I’ve said is that you can’t increase the price or demand without liquidity because it requires genuine volume for people to trust that when the time comes they will be able to sell, and I’m wondering how that can be created as an essential part of this process. I’m still not clear about that but I’ve made the point. And now it appears the proposal is not feasible anyway.
Great post as usual @mav but yeah it has some major plot holes that could conservatively put your figures off by an order of magnitude or three. Bittrex is the least worst option for trading Maid at the moment, but it certainly is no place the majority of people would keep their funds or provide “liquidity”: There is almost zero incentive to do so, and a much longer list of scary negative reasons not to do it. For this simple reason extrapolating current Maid CEX volume to any DEX scenarios is a really long shot. Security and Incentives reign in this space, more on this below.
That statement is a long long from where I am standing and what I have written about on this topic for years - I am surprised this is your take away. I have expressed the problem and possible solutions in Maid-e previously over many years, but here is a quick summary starting with the “worst” one I have seen erroneously leveled time and again: “That this is just a few greedy people who want to drive up the price, get rich quick”:
I have a modest amount of MaidSafeCoin sitting in deep cold storage not doing me, this project, or anyone any real good. On Uniswap or similar I can add them to the liquidity pool alongside some other pair that I own, say Ethereum. Why would anyone bother?
A) Instead of some CEX profiting from trading activity while I take all the risk (stealing or locking my funds, extorting me on the transfer fee out etc), I can instead personally collect those juicy trading fees for myself. Sometimes my Maid-e at risk goes down as price rises, but my eth will increase then vice versa when the Maid price decreases. I collect the fees for being a liquidity provider and get to re-invest the fees in more Maid if I wanted. Oh and I keep control of the keys - security. I could have let my Maid just sit there working away for the last few years and forgot about them… good for me and good for the project, but why exactly good for the project?
B) “Liquidity” increases as Maid-e holders move some of their stash into the DEX pools and eat CEXs lunch, sure, but that is not the real benefit or what brings real sustained value to the project. The vast community of decentralised developers and dApp users reside in that space. A Maid-e bridge over to the largest pool of decentralised developers, dApp users and where they have their accumulated wealth stored allows easier transition to the future SN. Developers developers and dApp users! They are all over there in the hundreds of thousands+.
What do I mean by “easier transition to SN”? If we were to launch next month there is only one small segment of potential new users that could sign on:
- The few that will risk using a couple of questionable CEXs, then shuffling in on Maid-o transition mechanism.
- Those with a desktop machine/rented servers to earn SN tokens directly.
Everyone else is excluded, especially mobile users other than read only.
Just to take the top concerns:
FATF will keep ultra private SN token off CEXs and away from direct fiat onramps like localbitcoins. Evidence for this posted previously.
Native SN Dex will be unavailable for how long, months, years? (See last paragraph here). Then add extra time for stablecoins to reach SN. Fiat onramps have a chance of never happening.
The best “against” I have seen so far:
@happybeing said that those on the inside could pay those on the outside to work for them. That assumes Mechanical Turk like DEX on SN which brings us back to the time to implement problem, and it reeks of haves and have nots… looks ugly.
@dirvine and team are going to pull a rabbit out the hat and we are set to get bearer certificate SN Token. Amazing and extremely useful for sure …but… it is the same problem as before: the haves paying the have-nots that they know in bearer certs, or some other form of philanthropist endeavour. A mass worldwide release of SN Token Gift cards for purchase could work, but I don’t see it being likely… FATF. Also try selling them and see how fast your pulled up on money laundering charges.
Jim raised possibility of using Maid-o with Thorchain as a lifeline to wider market. This could possibly do it and is the most promising solution outside of Maid-e so far. Do not know what the DEX situation is on Thorchain but would expect it to be decent.
I have seen nothing else addressing the enormous scale of the problem. I have not even seen much recognition that this is even a problem at all!!! Probably because most community members here are already hoarding a pile of MaidSafeCoin for years now, they want to keep it this way.
The proposal here is a relatively simple, actionable solution: New users already interested in decentralised tech hears about SN and that there is a simple Maid-e onramp. They jump on their favorite non custodial mobile wallet, some use their debit card, and they purchase Maid-e directly instantly via Uniswap or similar. They then send it to an exchange contract and receive their SN tokens shortly after… ready to use the SN. If they need cash to buy more hard drives then the process is reversed. Replace Maid-e with Maid-o and Thorchain as also very viable solution. Nothing else even comes close… does it?
Great to see all angles being covered here.
I would caution against this belief, if it were simple somebody would have done it. We have been down several paths so far and none are simple. If it were simple then it would be a really simple list of exact technical points of what must be done. Not do a swap or similar statement, but what API to call in each system and what logic is needed for each step.
I see many folk suggest something is simple, I know 2 projects that went omin → erc20 and both have said it was a lot of work and much more hassle (having to run private servers etc. and then support etc.).
A simple solution would I believe be jumped on. Even if it was not so simple as just follow a few commands, then perhaps it’s s simple sub contract to do X, but even X seems to be a moving target. That makes people nervous.
i.e. The end result needs clearly defined then the path to it. Then I think folk can see here is the work or cost or both, here is the end result. Then it’s an informed choose and perhaps a better approach?
So nobody ignoring the potential issues with OMNI, we are all aware there are issues (as with everything), but the issues need measured against definite proposals I reckon.
I was thinking from a technical standpoint vs the scale of the problem it solves as outlined in my post above. In terms of hostile UK laws and deliberate tax uncertainties, I agree that that side of it is certainly not simple for Maidsafe. The technology is pretty straight forward just look at what PDC could do in a short time on a shoestring budget. It is only the jurisdiction that makes it hard. That is why most companies operating in this space are in far flung places. Even Maid-o exchange #1 Bittrex Global packed up and moved to Bermuda… to make life simple. Not suggesting MaidSafe should do this of course…
I would let Harmen speak for himself, but we did speak after he went through that (as we weere considering it seriously at that time) and it was not simple at all. It seems it was a lot of work and hassle. I think it still is hassle for the guys there. I see posts even now for folk to swap and I know the guys have to do work.
Then the risk of that server getting hacked etc. must be hellish.
No worries at all.