P2P Lending on SafeX

Hey @dallyshalla would a P2P lending feature be available at some point on safex? I think it would be an amazing way for those who invested in maidsafe to stay in the ecosystem and bring others in, being a win win for everyone! Also a lending robot feature https://www.lendingrobot.com/#/
Would let people invest and forget!

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Doesn’t one need to be regulated for P2P lending?
I realize the site doesn’t lend, but it seems too easy to be true - there would be a boatload of such sites in the US if it didn’t require significant regulatory compliance.

Speaking of P2P lending, recently one P2P site in China had certain issues, it’s quite hilarious.

Make and release the software, let clearnet figure out the laws?

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There are three very popular p2p lending sites, one being lending tree. There is also a few popping up that do p2p lending with Bitcoin such as btcjam. They do comply with some SEC crap AFAIK but I’m not sure how much further they go with any compliance because like you said its peer to peer so. They do act as a middle men and have lawyers and debt collectors for which they take a higher percentage from investors for unpaid loans that had to BE collected. Otherwise it seems really profitable. Part of what makes it successful is that credit scores are used to rate risk and interest percentage but I’m not sure how that would be achieved on an anonymous exchange unless over time the DBOT (decentralized board of trade) were to rate users. But there would always be so many new users or returning with different accounts that everything would basically be high risk, making it hard to diversify, and kind of negating the point. So it’s interesting but not sure there are any “easy” solutions.

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I;m not yet very knowledgable on lending however, at a third glance,

People could make a profile, and its in their interest to use the same profile so that they can build a record of trust. So, if we wanted to remain anonymous, then we need to use zero-knowledge proofs, define the fields, and then people can remain anonymous, use the same profile and still get loans. Regulations around loans etc, not sure that I’ll get into that just yet though interesting to consider.

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Right, and maybe for higher loan amounts you have to have a higher rating, something simple. I guess the biggest thing is dealing with fiat, that’s prolly where all the regulations come in but also what would make it a more viable p2p lending platform. Would a p2p lending platform be something you’d be interested in implementing @dallyshalla?

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I am against anything that involves govern regulation and freedom of business

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Hey man me too, if it can be done autonomously and strictly p2p then I would think you could avert the law. I need to go back to the safex threads that talk about all that stuff so I’m refreshed on how @dallyshalla was able to create an exchange that was able to avoid being regulated and KYC stuff. @capivarao what do you think of the idea if able to exist without all the state and federal crap?

I think safex can exist whithout even bother with govern because it’ll be built on top of safenetwork that is anonymous by definition. Users don’t even need to put any personal information on any form. We don’t need to invite the govern to this project and start to voluntarily pay taxes and give him any information.

I can imagine readily lending someone a sword in a video game for 24 hours, and then automatically getting it back. But the process of lending money etc decentralized etc, eludes me at the moments. I do think that it will be possible because I can think of how to lend digital items and get them back, but not so sure about lending etc; it seems like a system of its own to ensure repayment etc;

Likely not something im readily into: p2p lending; yet I can imagine getting into it sometime down the road, especially if someone who already knows about it was motivated to make decentralized p2p lending and would know the criteria to satisfy on the lending part, and I’d be able to figure out how to do it over a p2p network.

From experiences I’ve noticed that as soon as something involves govt, costs of production go through the roof, and what you can not do immediately affects a project. There needs to be a possibility for pushing the envelope and that will lead to improving laws. People who are in government could be temporary, and times always change people get removed from office as elections happen regularly.

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Thinking more on this. My idea is totally half baked. If someone borrows safecoin and then exchanges it for Bitcoin then fiat good luck getting your money back, especially on an anonymous network. I mean maybe there is a way like you were saying where everything is strictly digital. Maybe the safecoin that is lent has data added that makes it non trade able on a market. I definitely think if it could be figured out it could be huge but I totally under estimated just how complicated p2p lending would be if you involve fiat. Perhaps with just safecoin it could be viable though. Say someone develops an app that requires large amount of compute, then with their dev safecoin rewards provided by the network they could repay loan. Just an idea I suppose

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Glad you saw the light!

I had a whole freaking topic of back and forth on this - anonymity and reputation - with Blindsite2K (who was merely stubborn) and Kafir (who was and still is an utterly clueless socialist).

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P2P lending on Safex shouldn’t be difficult in its self, unless people all want to remain anonymous.

If you get rid of anonymity for the borrower, agreements can be made that are enforceable in law, and to enforce this, at least one lender would need to lose anonymity to take court action.

Without this, as you say, there’s only morality stopping someone running off with the money, which for many people isn’t good enough.

I still think Safex could be useful for trading tokens like bonds, even if the borrower doesn’t have anonymity (probably better and more flexible than coloured coins or other alternatives).

This also won’t require regulation, as it’s person to person, and at least in the UK, the FCA only regulates businesses.

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Why would a borrower borrow in a place where he doesn’t have anonymity?
Maybe interest rates would be lower (lower risk), but that’s not guaranteed (you also get taxed and whatnot, plus the site must pass regulatory costs on to the poor bastards).

Far better rates are pretty much guaranteed if risks are significantly lower.

The vast majority of borrowers aren’t anonymous in general, so pretty much anyone who currently borrows (almost everyone) borrows without anonymity, so non-anonymous borrowing is a many tens of trillions of dollars market.

If the lenders are largely anonymous, it’s up to them to declare taxes if they wish, but there aren’t generally taxes on borrowing from other individuals as far as I know.

I don’t think the site its self will have regulatory costs - it’s just linking up individual borrowers and lenders (unless it wants to get involved in providing Insurances, financial promotions, or other regulated services).

Makes you wonder what the heck are they doing borrowing in the high interest rates P2P maket…

Yeah, banks etc offer very good rates which are hard to beat, at least by the rates of most P2P markets.

That being said, crypto-asset based P2P borrowing could offer more flexibility, e.g. bonds could be issued by a borrower, who then re-buys bonds at a rate that suits them (within reason & any agreed terms), and lenders don’t mind as long as they get their interest, the assets are tradable, and the borrower doesn’t do anything to increase risks significantly.

Something called “Locktime” which will invalidate spending the bitcoin for the specified period of time; blockchain will invalidate the transactions from the locked address.

I think of something like Safexcoin if you wanted to lend someone safexcoin for… a day to do some upvotes, I see why we can allow the coin to be used in voting but not used in sending out of the wallet when the time lock is over, the coin gets recognized as owned by its originator. Just preliminary thought, but it seems I will try to do something with timed automatic return for cryptographic items.

If it’s not under your complete control and you pay interest on it, that doesn’t seem like a good deal.

It’d be funny if there was another site that would make you a loan if you can prove ownership of certain amount of SAFE by sending a message or vote from an address.

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Correction: I proposed a blockchain based sister coin to Safecoin to be launched in order to provide a make-shift voting system. You claimed that this would impact anonymity but did not explain why. You further as I recall (someone did anyway) made the criticism that it would not provide for an anonymous reputation system…I questioned the utility of such a thing, as it seemed about as useful as a bicycle for fish - who would want to gain a reputation anonymously…how does that work?

lol…same argument…
I had a whole freaking topic of back and forth on this - anonymity and reputation - with @janitor ( who was and still is an utterly clueless free Marketeer! …) :smile:

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