Other Coins - Price & Trading topic


#205

No they don’t.

I used to be a professional poker player.

Traders do of course, but not professional gamblers.


#206

From the reddit post:

"I eventually reached the end of the tax year and decided that the CGT form was too complex for my situation. I went looking for an accountant and found a great one who I decided to go with. I informed them that I didn’t keep transaction history properly because I thought I wouldn’t pay tax on the income (which is true until the big sale). They told me that HMRC will likely not have the power to get trade history from exchanges, and in addition they won’t be able to get it if I can’t. He advised that I estimated the transactions as best I could and that’s what I did.

He also said that he will attempt to put it all through with the view that the transactions were highly speculative and that no tax should be due. The tax return was submitted around the beginning of July 2018. I was advised it could be up to 1 year in which HMRC might contact me to enquire or to dispute the claim for no tax. After a year passed it would be hard for them to go back on any decision they made. So far so good, no enquires, and if there is an enquiry my accountant is paid to handle all correspondence."


#207

The cost is the loss of future tax. The losses can be carried over indefinitely.


#208

Fines and jail time are very unlikely if you have sent in your tax return, with all the details and with an accountants opinion and report that you owe no tax. The worst that will happen is they will say no and dispute it. From there you pay the tax or take it further to a tribunal.

So doing it that way is low risk. Not sending in anything is very risky and yes could end in a big fine or jail. IMO.


#209

Agree - but they also prefer to go after soft targets to show they’re ‘doing something’ and to hit their targets. Easier and less politically risky than tackling the real big-time tax evaders which are a much tougher nut to crack.


#210

Whatever your opinion is, there is clearly some uncertainty on how to deal with crypto, because some accountants are disagreeing on the government guidelines. So there clearly needs to be some kind of clarity made which I expect will happen as crypto becomes more and more mainstream.

There is a chance at the very least an ICO could be classed as very risky, highly speculative and that may class as gambling. It may also depend when you bought the coin and how established it was.

The government guidelines say it will asses on a case by case basis. Which is very confusing.


#211

Apologies, you are right of course. I knew it was capital gains exempt, but I thought it was subject to income tax.


#212

No problem.

You had me worried for a second :roll_eyes:


#213

I hadn’t heard of anyone going for this angle until your post. I’ve heard accountants say it is CGT liable to income tax liable, but none saying no tax will be due due to high speculation. It is a new one on me!

When my accountant did my self assessment earlier in the year, they just treated it as a capital gain and were pretty unambiguous about it. I only sold enough to stay within my tax free allowance and they were happy for it not to be declared because of this.

Anyway, I wouldn’t want the sword of Damocles over my head wondering if HMRC were going to come after me. Maybe I just sleep better this way! :slight_smile:


#214

:sweat_smile: sorry about that one!


#215

yeah i agree, and I’m going to seek a few professional opinions before I choose which accountant to go with.

I’m just highlighting that there is some ambiguity at the moment in the guidelines, and with that they will see many different cases.

I of course don’t mind paying tax, but I think taxing when you trade from one alt to another is unfair, and if you spend your coin you shouldn’t have to work out the gain you made in that coin each time and pay tax on it. That may seem fair in the eyes of the current rules for other assets, but I don’t think it is realistic, especially as crypto becomes more used online. They will have a huge headache following all what people have spent, and it could hamper innovation and send it all to another, more friendly country.


#216

As far as frequent trading goes. My accountant has no problem with it. If you do not need to pull the cash to support yourself it can be classed as cap gain rather than income, having a seperate income helps alot here.


#217

I completely agree.

Overall, I hope to just treat ‘crypto’ at the assets, and overall gains in fiat will be declared as gains for CGT when I exit, and ignore the many poorly documented trades between alts alone, as documenting them all would lead to the same result on aggregate, with far more work for me & HMRC.

So I guess if you’re being honest & not avoiding tax while making it simpler, they should be happy with it?

I’m obviously no accountant & could be very wrong, but HMRC seem to be reasonable if you’re not trying to avoid paying tax, and expect they’d be ok with this reasonable simplification that ends in the same tax being paid. I hope for HMRC being reasonable, especially when there are many grey areas here & it’s a new scenario.

However, I’m working on as full documentation as possible just in case.


#218

At the moment most accountants are not taking that line, they say you have to pay CGT on each disposal of an asset. Very annoying, but I think they are taking the safest route.


#219

Indeed. It just seems stupid to pay tax on something, then claim it back on something else, repeat many times causing lots of hassle, and end up in the same place as a simple aggregation.

While I expect accountants will be conservative, I doubt HMRC would come down hard on anyone who’s paid what they owe in a way that simplifies the process for everyone… we’ll see in years to come I expect.

If it turns out ICOs are basically considered gambling for tax purposes I’ll be happy, but I think it’s more analogous to investing in startups, which is still treated as a capital gain for tax purposes despite the high risks.


#220

Hi Guys I am not officially rich. I have posted and shared invites for Q initiative on Facebook, therefore I now have a few hundred thousand Q’s which I am told are each worth 1USD - see guys that’s just how easy it is to make money with crypto, so stop being loser nerds and join Q today! :joy::rofl::money_mouth_face:


#221

I did about 140 trades last financial year and my only holding at year’s end and since was Maid. I couldn’t be bothered figuring out every trade so took my total purchases away from my total sales not counting my year end Maid. It saves a lot of time


#222

You poor soul, are you committing the crime of Trading While American? :rofl:

Joke aside, it’s no coincidence so many financial companies refuse American clients. None but the biggest few can afford a compliance department the size of a small country…


#223

I’m from the UK actually.


#224

Excuse my mistake. I lived there for a bit and it was so simple. I just paid £10 or so to an “umbrella company” and they took care of everything. I’m sure taxes after capital gains are more complicated, especially if nobody knows if they are even capital gains :sweat_smile: