OK, what you on about?

Continuing the discussion from Poll: Should MaidSafe implement PtP (Pay the Producer)?:

Ok, go ahead… :smile:

Let´s start with a few of rhetorical questions. Feel free to object

  1. Is this forum hosted by a private person? Yes it is
  2. Is it a public place? No, it isn´t.
  3. Is against freedom of speech when a private person affords people who are acting upon his*her private property to comply to a specific guideline? No, it´s not.
  4. Does the Terms of Service say the following:

“Please read this Agreement carefully before accessing or using the Website. By accessing or using any part of the web site, you agree to become bound by the terms and conditions of this agreement.” ?

Yes, it does.

Have you become bound by the termins and condition of the agreement? Yes, you have.

If you don´t like it, moderators have repeatedly expressed that you CAN if fact discuss the guidelines. However, what you suggest that you don´t have to comply with anything for whatever reason.

Lol…OK.

I agree with 1-4 and take your word that the agreement says that.

However, if you wish to continue this conversation you agree to become bound by my terms and conditions of this agreement. :smile:
Do you get my point?

I have no interest in discussing guidelines or anything else with the moderators as I do not regard them as legitimate. I shall however discuss how the community best structure/organise itself etc with the larger communinty.[quote=“Artiscience, post:2, topic:9324”]
However, what you suggest that you don´t have to comply with anything for whatever reason.
[/quote]
I know that I argue honestly, I’m not deliberately offensive, follow Humanist principles etc, so I think I should be OK with any guidelines that fit in with this - if they don’t then the guidelines must be wrong.
You read too much into things - this is not me deliberately breaking rules - its just me not recognising them, reading them or caring a monkey’s toss about them…that’s all :smile:

No, please elaborate…

OK, if you still don’t get my point, it is probably because there is a larger argument about how this forum mutated from “community run”, to “community run in spirit” to “private”. Each description has been successively argued to be the case by the private owners/operators. In the beginning everyone was equal - now they are not and 99% of the community had no say in the matter.
The one obvious reading of this is that the community was being mis-sold something…there are many dangers I can see and wish to express my concerns to the larger community. This is nothing to do with complaining about mods…lol…that’s like complaining about the police - I’m saying the forum should either not be private or alternatively I’ll support any other community run forum options.

You are changing subject here. What the forum SHOULD be is an entirely different discussion. The forum is what it is and even if you pretend that the forum mutuated, it has always been a private forum and as far as I know the guidelines always stated that it was run “as if” it was a public park.

Your whole point seems to be to open up an endless discussion when it is acutally pretty simple: this forum has forum guidelines defined by the host who has full authority to define those guidelines while you have none. Your remarks on how the forum “should” be are funny at best. Anyone cares whether you support other community forums. You can just go whereever you like - but as we all know, you won´t because you don´t want to be alone, that´s obvious :wink:

We had this discussion over and over again. I even remember that someone opened an alternate forum that was supposedly run without any sort of moderation. It probably still exists with about 10 user accounts and several multiaccounts… maybe you get the point.

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i had already addressed the original subject by using your own argument against you. Did you agree to my terms by continuing the conversation or not? You evaded the question.
You asked me to elaborate to help you comprehend my argument, so I did by giving you the background - this was not changing the subject…the subject was addressed.[quote=“Artiscience, post:6, topic:9324”]
The forum is what it is and even if you pretend that the forum mutuated, it has always been a private forum
[/quote]

I’m not pretending anything. Either:

A)The forum mutated…or as you say,

B) It has always been private.

If B) is true, then I maintain that the community was mis-sold the nature of the forum by private interests wishing to basically ring fence everything. All the early claims of it being “community run”, then “community run in spirit” were basically false advertising to keep the community here.[quote=“Artiscience, post:6, topic:9324”]
it has always been a private forum and as far as I know the guidelines always stated that it was run “as if” it was a public park.

Again, I don’t care what the guidelines say, for the already given reasons. Your point here makes my argument for me. You are saying that the Private Park owners are saying it should be treated as a Public Park…it can’t because its private!..lol…This is the kind of “arguing both sides” that is going on here.[quote=“Artiscience, post:6, topic:9324”]
“Anyone cares whether you support other community forums. You can just go whereever you like - but as we all know, you won´t because you don´t want to be alone, that´s obvious :wink:

[/quote]

Thanks for again highlighting the unwelcoming attitude - I am just speaking and believe in freedom of speech - if the private owners think its in their best interest to shut me down, suspend me or talk to community members this way, then so be it - it only helps my case.[quote=“Artiscience, post:6, topic:9324”]
maybe you get the point.
[/quote]

Yes, you want me to leave the forum…I’ve already said I get your “point” but its not a point - its just unfriendly, unwelcoming remarks.
You are basically articulating the same as the owners, you claim to be acting in the community’s interest, yet everyone knows that private interests look after private interests.

[/quote]

I didn´t consider your devils advocate attempt a serious question. Apparently you believe that your post and the platform the post was made on is the same. I don´t mind if you keep believing that, only pointing out the qualitative difference.

Well, you insinuate that there it has been mis-sold. I don´t see how it was mis-sold, I only see that you seem to lack of understanding how websites on the current internet work and that no matter how liberal a page-owner pretends to be, there is always a person/institution owning and effectively controling a page. The contradictions you hopelessly want to see is not necessarily contradictive. Aside from the fact that you quote things without reference, “Community run” can mean a lot of things. I would certainly refer to this forum as community run, because the people who run the forum are recruited from the community and not paid to administer the forum by a company.
Your objection is VERY general. Following your argument the sheer existence of people with exclusive rights would contradict your notion of “community run”. Again, please please keep your beliefs, but don´t act as if there has been some sort of anarchistic state that never existed. Call it “mis-sold” or whatever. I don´t see how anyone bothers if you do that.

Not really, but nevermind, I elaborated on that above. If you don´t see my point it´s really your problem, not mine.

Well, it really is a reciprocal thing, isn´t it?

No, you confuse freedom of speech as public principle with freedom as a negative reflex to any sort of rules. Communities constitute themselves through practices. The community guidelines are far from being plainly imposed, they have been acknowledged by practice by the vast majority of the people on the board. The people who moderate the forum have repeatedly expressed that they don´t mind if people come up with an alternative proposals. You on the contrary have expressed 0 interest in making alternate proposals how to handle the community. You just claim that you should be free to do whatever you like. It´s obvious why you have problem with how this community is handled. I can´t see how you wouldn´t have problems with any community.

I can see how you believe that shutting you down proofs your point and I agree - it will proof your point according to your way of looking at things. If you feel better in case you get banned again I don´t see any problem.

No, I don´t. But if you prefer to belief so, do as you wish. I think you´re doing it anyway.

“alternatively I’ll support any other community run forum”

Finally, something I can agree with. I hope I didn’t misquote.

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He is going through the full range of psychological manipulations, plain as day.

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Well it was.[quote=“Artiscience, post:8, topic:9324”]
Apparently you believe that your post and the platform the post was made on is the same.
[/quote]

No, I believe the argument is the same. You started this by disputing my claim that I do not subscribe, have not subscribed, nor ever will subscribe to the forum guidelines. If I subscibed to them, then you subscribed to mine, in exactly the same way.[quote=“Artiscience, post:8, topic:9324”]
The contradictions you hopelessly want to see is not necessarily contradictive
[/quote]

eh?[quote=“Artiscience, post:8, topic:9324”]
I would certainly refer to this forum as community run, because the people who run the forum are recruited from the community
[/quote]

Ah…the Kim Jong Un principle - I recruited the powers that be from the community, therefore North Korea is a “community run” country.[quote=“Artiscience, post:8, topic:9324”]
and not paid to administer the forum by a company.
[/quote]

I believe Fabrunelle mentioned that they were looking at paying mods - in which case that would exactly be how it would be.[quote=“Artiscience, post:8, topic:9324”]
Following your argument the sheer existence of people with exclusive rights would contradict your notion of “community run”
[/quote]

No, the sheer existence of people with exclusive rights not granted by the community would contradict any notion of “community run”.[quote=“bluebird, post:10, topic:9324, full:true”]
He is going through the full range of psychological manipulations, plain as day.
[/quote]

Would you care to substantiate that allegation?

Not really. Imho he just loves to play devil’s advocate troll-ishly.

I don’t need to, and I’m immune to it, btw.

I semi-predict a “grand exit” as a last resort
.

“Any notion”…very interesting. Apparently you are the dictator of semantics :wink:

Lol…good on you, building up immunity to my psychological warfare… :smile:[quote=“bluebird, post:13, topic:9324”]
I semi-predict a “grand exit” as a last resort
[/quote]

You’d be semi-wrong then. I will remain until I am permanently banned and I will fight them on the beaches until then. Being the first person to be banned in defence of free speech, de-centralisation, accountability to the community and transparency would be the only badge worth having on here…I would wear it as a badge of honour. :smile:

Where is this info coming from? Is there a link? Please share, I’ll like to submit my bitcoin address :yum:. I never heard of anything like this.

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Lol…it was in one of the “Meta” category threads when I was asking if any mods/owners had any ideas about how to improve transparency, accountability to the community and de-centralise the power structure back to the community. There weren’t any ideas suggested as far as I can recall, but I do remember Fabrunelle suggesting the idea to pay mods was being floated. I wondered at the time where the money would come from as only option seemed to be the community somehow or maybe advertising.
Really can’t remember which thread, but I’m sure Fabrunelle can recall the exchange.

Wow…“fight”…you really work hard to prove your appearance as a loudmouth ;). I find it kind of ironic you are using high values such as freedom of speech as an excuse to reject any sort of social responsibility. While all of what you say and said about the forum sounds as if you are 100% in the wrong place it´s obvious you will never move to a different place let alone run your own forum because attention is more important to you than those highly appraised moral values. Remain until banned? Pretty sure you would come back even if banned, so…

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Not semantics, just reasoning. Any notion/reasoning/argument in defence of this forum being community run, that can also be used in exactly the same way by an actual dictator to describe North Korea as “community run” clearly fails. It would have been more accurate for Happybeing to describe the forum structure as “Totalitarian in spirit”.
Anyway, I won’t respond to your descent into name calling as clearly that just demonstrates you have no further argument to make,.

:wink: (20 lovely chars)

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