NVO Decentralized Exchange - Crowdsale


#425

@tonbi wasn’t my first comment clear enough about this already?

This guy is hijacking your thread with a nonsensical debate that is absolutely irrelevant to this thread, with subjects that are way over his head.

But since we are already in this subject, what is your personal philosophy @tonbi regarding to security through obscurity.
Do you think it reasonable to have some exceptions to the rule, or that it should always be open security/security by design without exception?


#426

I don’t believe in black or white approach to any problem or solution. There’s an exception to every rule and everything gets hacked at some point. A false sense of security can be effective hence why centralized exchanges can still mess up and people will still trust them.

However, transparency and openness are much more effective in an active development environment, and I prefer that much better.


#427

Do you know what actually encompasses the concept of “security through obscurity”? This is one of the very few topics that there is an almost unanimous consensus in security engineering, this concept has been rejected since 1850, way before the computers existed.

This is one of the very few subjects out there that it is pretty much white and black.

So, now I am concerned with that answer.
How hands on are you in the development of the system, or are you fully delegating this to your partner Yannick Bragui?

Does your partner share the same opinion of relying sometimes on the obscurity of the design as the only security measure rather than relying on a system designed to be secure?


#428

But since we are already in this subject, what is your personal philosophy

You asked for my opinion then try to take that personal opinion to reflect it on NVO. It’s no different then asking for my opinion on socialism then calling me a communist for not answering in black or white. You are very narrow-minded if you think anything is black and white. By comparing my answer with the answer of the already established crowd, you don’t bring up any personal opinion or demonstrate any critical thinking skill.

This is exactly what I said:

I don’t believe in black or white approach to any problem or solution. There’s an exception to every rule and everything gets hacked at some point. A false sense of security can be effective hence why centralized exchanges can still mess up and people will still trust them.

However, transparency and openness is much more effective in an active development environment, and I prefer that much better.

Please reflect on your attitude if you are going to attack people after asking for their personal opinion. Anyway please get back on topic. We don’t need people bragging about their philosophies on our crowdsale post like on Good will hunting.


#429

Going to put this here so we can stay back on topic.


#430

I wish you guys would stop, really stop, bickering, be it about “security through obscurity”, which I was the first to mention, or endorsements or whatever. It makes no sense to first call somebody a troll and promise not to reply to him anymore, and then reply anyway. I’m thinking about investing in this thing and I need facts. I don’t care the least about hurt feelings, insults, pride and what not. I don’t think the people doing the actual work developing, marketing, answering questions should care either. Please focus on the code and forget about feelings. There is money involved here, and possibly even a new Internet.

Please don’t reply to this post. Focus on the project.


#431

So it seems many people are searching for facts and in doing so, end up in a pissing contest with the team. You call it bickering, I like this exchange because it tells me everything I need to know about the people behind the project. I would caution against telling people to stop challenging these guys, but its your money.


#432

You have argued for a security issue by obscuration, while the wallet will be open source, except the validator the time we position ourselves on the market.

So, no, we’re not going to rely on obscuring the code as a security model, this is a capital sin of computer security and produces a code full of bugs and glitch.
The closure of the source of the validator, is more related to the competitivity and protection of the idea of the project, more than the security in itself.

I hope that is definitely enlightened.

@tonbi security through obscurity is not related to the state of the source code, it is about how the source is written, if you rely on the code obscurity or not in order to handle the different elements of the source.

Development has already begun:


#433

Do you plan on having trusted third-parties review the code for the validator?


#434

Yes it is stated into the whitepaper, validator code auditing by trusted third parties. No one wants to see DEXs run by newbies because they were able to copy paste the source from github to scam people. I have seen ICOs using copy/paste of the BTCT forum.
We will first ask the MaidSafe team if they want to audit the code as the DEX will use safeNet.


#435

If I understand correctly, if I buy into the crowdsale with BTC, the NVOT will be sent to to the appropriate address, but I will not be able to see or send the NVOT if I use a regular bitcoin wallet. Then how will I know it’s there? Also, does that mean the NVOT can never be transferred from that address so that the NVOS will forever be sent there?

I am interested in investing but I am confused about this.


#436

NVOT and NVOS will be like MAID, both use blockchain 2.0, NVO will use Counterparty, MAID use Omnilayer.

If you send counterparty Asset, or an Omni asset to a bitcoin address, you won’t have any controle over them unless you use the required environment, Omnicore or a federated node (counterparty).

If you want to have more informations, you can check these :

http://coinsecrets.org/

https://counterparty.io/docs/faq/

If you have anymore questions, please feel free to post them.


#437

I thought in the beginning that you were treating @tonbi unfairly, but this last comment of his is making me reconsider their competency.

@tonbi I consider my observation to be relevant, your opinions on that matter is crucial for a project that will be heavily relying on security.
Good ideas are absolutely worthless unless you have the right mindset, as everyone knows it is all in its implementation.

Your job as a CEO @tonbi in a investment round is to make investors’ concerns go away, we are not attacking you, but if you can’t stand that we voice our concerns, well good luck.
We are evaluating you, because after all, at this stage the only thing a rational investor would do is invest in your character and competency. And in that last comment of yours you showed me neither, it doesn’t give me the peace of mind I am searching for.

As an Angel Investor myself, that’s is basically what I do, I invest in people.
Ideas are worthless, it is the team that matters. And their principles.

And yes, everything you say will be used against you, and all your ideas will be challenged and mocked if it is perceived as weak or absurd, if you think this is harsh, go pitch it to a VC fund and see how well it goes with that attitude.

@nemgun thank you for your answer. That is the type of answer I was expecting to get.
Are you Yannick?


#438

Keeping the dialogue going will reveal more than is possible to know about any team via a pitch deck (or lack of a good one). Im not sure anyone wants believe they in incapable. I think they deserve a chance. Keep the conversation going and let them learn how they should interact. This is nothing but a good idea (as you know) and its going to take more than fending off rude posters to bring this to fruition.


#439

That is a very good question. I thought this guy was just an FOTF?


#440

@BIGbtc @piluso

My name is Boudali Imed, yani is an excellent and old friend, he asked me to help him with the project, he is a developer and required someone with experience in finance, management and development. this is why i invited him in my home, in Algeria. Actually we are in my development house where we have all the required equipements to work.

I always worked alone in my development projects as i am perfectionist, i never developed for someone except to help him. There is a single person who supports working with me because i am very nervous and sometimes i can hurt the feelings of my mate when i am not satisfied by what he is doing.

At the begining i was just a supporter, in the very begining it was a multiwallet with an exchange like JAXX and EXODUS, after discussions with Yani and Ton, we went to a conclusion where we decided to create two tokens to ensure the project stays legal.

Regarding the validator, Yani had a lot of options regarding its integration, but each one had her own flaws, it is only at this moment where i decided to create the validator because there was too much flaws in the actual systems.

Personally i wasn’t aware of SafeNet, that’s why i had a look at all the documentations and made some tests. This is where i got the idea about the validator’s design, what could it do, and how could it be used with the plugins. I didn’t wanted NVO to be a common wallet like the QT versions or the JAXX COPAY EXODUS wallets, who uses technologies soon to be deprecated.

I decided to bring an idea with a plan who will live for a long time, by inspiring of what is actually existing, Bitcoin and of the way it works, i stayed long enough in the irc channels of bitcoin core devs to find what is the best policy to bring a project to life, and not to bind its lifetime to a new wallet provided by a competitor. I wanted to give it the lifetime of bitcoin.

Look at bitcoin today, there are so many blockchains and innovations, but what ever they are, Bitcoin is still on top. Today the Altcoins are complementary to Bitcoin, that’s why NVO will be complementary to Cryptocurrencies by exploiting their ressources. That’s why the Validator couldn’t be a single block placed in single location, this is why it will be scatered into several locations. Stored into the safeNetwork, dialoging using namecoin or nexus encryption, using the safelauncher …

After listening to my idead, yani allowed me to work on the Validator, that’s i made its specifications and that i am continiously improving it.

Ton won’t convince you regarding development, however, he is one of the master pieces of the project, as he will promote the project in a very efficient manner at the production release, and regarding the team, he is always helping us by providing what ever we need regarding the development.

I do not know if he did it express or not, but he put us in contact with you, and coinpayments, our first plugin will be for them, he made sure that this project is known by a larger public. …
He is very listening to the developers and receptive to our ideas, a CEO can handle everything, he does not need to have specific technical knowledge. It is upon us that the burden of idea and innovation comes back.
I have seen many other CEOs in other fields, the excellent CEO always forward their developers, and that’s what Ton did. And on this point, he has all my respect.

At first we were fighting 4-5 times a day, now we have learned to work in harmony and to know the skills of each and to work in a coordinated way within the team.


#441

@nemgun This is relieving, because I was hoping you were in their team. I have the feeling that you are a nice counterweight.
As you said, the CEO doesn’t need to know the very last technical detail that’s why I was asking if his technical guy was sharing his same opinion, because that would had been not just worrying but truly alarming.

What would you say it is each one’s strengths and weaknesses?


#442

Thanks. Since I am new to this, I guess my question is whether at some point in the future will I be able to use, say Omnicore to access the NVOT in my BTC wallet? Or whether they will be stuck there indefinitely if I don’t address this now. I understand there will be some transition period until things are fully up and running. So I am more concerned with the end game with this question.


#443

Hello, I sent BTC from my counterparty wallet to your escrow address, when I get NVO and can view it in my counterwallet? How I can be sure everything is ok?


#444

If you want, you can run your own federated node, and use that address for the crowdsale, you will have a full controle of the NVO tokens directly. Or you can use the counterwallet.
The tokens will be created and distributed after the crowdsale, ass soon as you will receive them into a counterparty compliant system you will be able to see and use them.

@Lackys
As long as the blockchain says that your transaction is confirmed, everything is fine.

@ both

You can use this explorer to see the counterparty tokens : https://xchain.io/

It is like : http://omniexplorer.info/

@piluso

Thanks for the compliment.

Ton :
Strength: Honest and cultivated, and a great team word bearer and excellent designer.
Weakness: As soon as a person says no, he no longer wishes to speak to him. For me it is called beautiful principles, but in the business world one must see the interests of the project and know how to be more politician without being depressed.
Always wants to do well, and respond to everybody, even if sometimes he is wrong, but he prefers to respond in order to be polite.

Yani:
Strength: Very meticulous in his work, very conscientious and excellent friend
Weakness: Love sleep, worse than a koala, not taking care of himself, and is not binding enough

Me:
I don’t really know my qualities, except one, i love drangon ball and marvels.
I love my weaknesses, so let me give you some : (i could make a blockchain with them)
I like to control everything.
pretentious
arrogant
narcissistic
Uses without making express, the weaknesses of the people to insult them
All the time analyzing the personality of people to prove that I am superior, when that is not the case.
Not really sociable, I want to live in Alaska all by myself.
very nervous
I quickly get tired of everything, I divorced twice.
All the time need a new stuff to feel good
Pushes people to end
Adore abuses my authority to lead people wherever I want, NVO was originally a multiwallet sympathetic with a small DEX and small problems to be settled over time. In the final I pushed the team to do something more complex.
Does not appreciate the nice things
Most of the time, people think that I have no feelings and that I would end my life alone, except Yani who reassures me by saying "do not worry I would ask my wife to send you Spagueti bolognied by DHL ". I do not say thank you, I said “do not worry, I love how is my life”.
And the list is still very very long