I can always upload new content and use bots on. Same time if in system exists some failure % i can ignore sometimes requests from another nodes to keep content uncached as long as i need. Same time noone can refuse to use just a node "id" to download contect mostly from node.
Caching is not good protection against farmers.
How was written before, price depends of network size.
Another scenario: maidsafe can’t resists against bots, they are in. In one moment we are reached our maximum number of enthusiasts who run their servers. No more new resources.
In such case its exactly like finance pyramid. Less resources provide icreasing price, because its network who will decide how much cost PUT.
At the end: network overfilled, less and less people can use for personal purposes. It will be like archive.org for files. And people will start to leave. In such case network (which not growing up) will lose resources (=increase much more PUT price) and at the moment it becomes a read-only p2p archive.
no problem, i’ll read the article what correspond my topic if you’ll link it.
Nope, sorry. SAFE works out the cost and when there is only a few % of available storage available it might cost you 10,000 safecoin per PUT (MB) and there would be still be TBs of space available. So if you had plenty of coin and kept going after another 1000 puts (1GB) it might now cost 100,000 coins per put. So after another 1000 puts it might cost 1 million coin per put. Sorry even if you had all the coins that only allows 4000 more puts, but even less since the price keeps skyrocketing.
The pricing algorithm is in the code and as space drops from 50% free the price starts rising and when you hit 20% free it is rising more quickly and 10% it rises fast and 5% it skyrockets. So no you cannot fill the network, there simply is not enough coin.
Also there will never be a point where farmers will not increase in number or increase vault size when the farming rate increases.
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Some post with this topic…
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All again around PUT price and people say ‘that not fail, all will be ok’.
Some people ask exactly the questions like me and get exactly the same answer like i see here.
Nothing is changed in 2 years?[quote=“neo, post:24, topic:10527”]
SAFE works out the cost and when there is only a few % of available storage available it might cost you 10,000 safecoin per PUT (MB)
[/quote]
I’m agree, but to pay 10,000 sc for 1 Mb its expensive and less and LESS users will use system to upload data and create something new. System is alive and dead same time. Noone want to support dead system even if core is alive.
Next step: enthusiasts who mined coins during long period with their nodes (4-8Tb nodes on dedicated servers) will sell coins market for $ and € and they will close their nodes.
system start → users → users → no more enthusiasts → price increase → less uploaders → download use only → [people leave system while ratio safecoin/€ still high] → [ratio SC/€ goes down due huge SC mass available on markets]
Who won? Maidsafe won, node admins and farmers - if they left while ratio still high. Its good longterm startup what should to bring money for people who’ll join, but this network have the end. Its a simple pyramid.
Same time i think, that prices in most of DC will increase (due avg traffic) and if now we can get 300Mbit/unlim for 100€ we’ll have 20Tb for same money. On 300Mbit connection you can produce 97.2Tb traffic in 30 days.
In case of limited traffic nework will work slowly. When users will be limited with even 10Tb/30days it will decrease speed from 300Mbit/s to 31Mbit/s = 3.8 Mb per second, little faster than single ADSLv2 .
Thats why less and less people will JOIN the network. Real resources will cost much more than now.
Last chance - sell safecoins on market. More coins are selling AND less people buying virtual money - price of SC will drop (final price depends of people, if i want to sell coins right now and 1$ and someone need money more than me he’ll put less price OR he’ll wait and lose his time).
If someone will intergrate CS in ATM device like already made with BTC - it will save the situation with ratio, when we will be able to pay pack of milk for SC in shop.
As a farmer you get your Vaults filled up with data. So 4-8TB doesn’t mean a thing as long as it’s empty. Only when you store like a million chunks and 1 is requested by the network, you might farm some Safecoin. But you are not the only one providing huge amounts of space, so it might take days before you are storing 1TB. Unless you run several Vaults on the same machine, but all Vaults need to route and cache chunks of data as well. Without getting paid for. Only when a chunk you store in your Vault is requested you make Safecoin. So you could start 50 Vaults in the hope to store more data, but your bandwidth must be good to support all that routing of data. If your Vaults become to slow for that reason you might be kicked out of a group. That means no connection and no more farming.
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You quoted a part of my message and aswered, but there is not line what connect with full text.
Quoted fragment was about: people with 4-8Tb nodes will leave the network and sell their coins on market. There is
nothing about “how to farm more”.
All what i want to say, what system get resources from people and more people who share their resources, more resources people will have. But when there is no new people system is stucked.
It’s classical pyramid where members invest their money while pyramid exists and leave with some money before it will fail.
With current model (pyramid model) maidsafe will start well, atract people, reach the peak of popularity and after this peak people who came to support & win money will sell their coins, close servers and system will go down.
They must change coin-resource-reward system. For the moment i don’t see the GNU, i see COMMERCIAL use-only.
Instead of coin-reward they should to improve and create internal tools with TTL. I fond TTL in MaidSafeDistributedHashTable.pdf . They shouldn’t have data with TTL=-1 and they don’t need safecoins. In such case its a true GNU.
And they need more anti-abuse algorithms.
There are (and will be more to come) people, like me, who just want the secure storage, hosting and messaging of SAFEnet. I see Safecoin as an appropriate mechanism for establishing the equilibrium between the people who want to those things and the people who supply the resources to keep the network running. I have no particular interest in using Safecoin to get rich (getting rich would be nice but I don’t worry about it).
Whether it becomes an unstable pyramid scheme depends on the relative numbers of such people compared to people who only want to speculate with the coin. You might be right that perhaps in the beginning there will be a flood of speculators and the price will peak and crash. But after the dust has settled people will get down to using it to build a whole new world.
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When more people run Vaults as farmers, the reward in Safecoin per delivered chunk goes down. So the network balances itself out. So if you run several Vaults (let’s say 3) and you make an x-amount of Safecoin on it per day, it doesn’t make sense to start yet another one if it costs you money.
Your assumption that people will stop farming at the peak because they want to sell coins and say goodbye to the system is wrong IMO. It doesn’t make economic sense. Let’s say 25% of the big farmers leave the network because they want to sell their coins and stop farming, what happens? Well, the reward per delivered chunk out of a Vault goes up because there are less resource available. What happens when the farming reward (FR) goes up? More people join the network to farm coins as they want to earn Safecoin. It’s just like farming wheat when the price is high.
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Nope. Pyramid need the members (who share). Each new member must bring 1 or 2 more - in such case it grow up and people inside are happy.
No new members - no more additional place and less fee space every moment when someone upload with price for PUT increasing each time. Internal price IN system.
External price are on exchange websites where people offer their € for softcoins. It’s a peak. Price will increase and most clever will sell their coins to obtain real money. People will buy it to upload stuff, but the price is going up (PUT price).
Peope who escaped just on peak have profit. Who leaves on peak - have more profit. People who stay on peak - have risk to lose.[quote=“polpolrene, post:30, topic:10527”]
Your assumption that people will stop farming at the peak because they want to sell coins and say goodbye to the system is wrong IMO. It doesn’t make economic sense. Let’s say 25% of the big farmers leave the network because they want to sell their coins and stop farming, what happens? Well, the reward per delivered chunk out of a Vault goes up because there are less resource available. What happens when the farming reward (FR) goes up? More people join the network to farm coins as they want to earn Safecoin. It’s just like farming wheat when the price is high.
[/quote]
Internal price is high, external - depends of buy/sell offers. When people will leave the system, internal reward will increase (for % or 0.%) but less people will be able upload due high PUT price and less people will buy safecoins because before you spent (just for example) 0.01$ per Gb, now you pay 0.1$ per Gb.
With 0.1$ per GB (just an example!) price maidsafe not will be alternative for another methods anymore.
People who share immoral content will continue use maidsafe. People who will use it for legal purposes - not, because of price.
Same time it will boost S3/Google/Dropbox to change their plans. Same time you can always can use VPS with owncloud under auth form, for legal purposes.
Thats a real world and safecoin model - pyramid model. People will join for money too.
Either it will peak and crash, or it will maintain a steady (perhaps steadily increasing) price. It has to be one or the other. In the former case, the speculators will eventually leave. In the latter case, I don’t see that there is any problem. If the price goes to astronomical levels then people won’t use the system and the price will have to come down because speculation can’t keep it there for long.
Why not look at some real-world examples? Bitcoin has had its ups and downs but overall is stable enough to be used as a currency. Maybe there is some pyramid component built into its price, but it doesn’t appear to prevent it from being used as money.
The PUT price isn’t fixed as well. When PUT becomes expensive, this means the FR is high as well, so you can make good money if you run a Vault to farm coins at that time. That makes new farmers come online and the FR going down. Like I said before, the network balances itself out. The whole idea of a pyramid model doesn’t apply here. It would mean that I make money when you buy my coins so you can make money as well selling it to someone else until the price is at the moon somewhere. The truth is that it’s just like Bitcoin. It’s supply/demand. I can make 10% profit when I farm some coin after I paid my electricity bill, but when the price of the coins drops 25% before I sold them I still make a loss, even when I was in early.
BTC have a nice PR, they was unique. BTC doesn’t have concurent with base. BTC - have anonymous feature, thats all. BTC price depends of PR-level, just watch how&why its dropped from 1k$ to current level. Each time longer and longer. There is no pyramid in, except some pyramid use them. People can mine and mine as they paying their electric bills.
Safecoins - they have same anymous fearure and resources under, safecoins have a base. With good PR people will offer for them more money. But, as i;ve read forum, pdf and wiki, reward in maidsafe depends of how much free space used/available, with the price of PUT, which flexible. In such case System need new users who will share their resources to keep balance between nice FR ~~ price of PUT.
As not-only-me told in this thread: with less space price for PUT will increase and FR will increase too. But no people who spend for PUT, no new chunks, all old already cached. When content cached i guess you win less?)
Let me explain: people use system while this system satisfy this people. On start we’ll get low price 'cause lot of people will join.
Some time after more people will join, without coins, who will farm them to upload some stuff after.
System growing, blablabla everyone is happy… and it’s a moment when people need more space what system can offer. Internal price increase, external too, 'cause project is popular and its stll cheaper than google for legal purposes.
Farmers win more FR for each Mb/Gb but they have less Mb/Gb… like you driving a car with 200kg bananas each day for 200$, day after 170kg for 180$, next day 150kg for 170$, and finally you drive 1 banan for 50$.
Price per banan increased, but your daily reward decreased.
Hot is hot, red is red and pyramid is pyramid. We can call it how we want, but pyramid always fail. If maidsafe want a project for life - they should to change it. If they need money 'cause they are already spend a lot during this years - keep pyramid.
I’ll join them in both ways, GNU way to support the project, Pyramid - to win money without care about, cause pyramid made to accumulate more resources possible and explode (selling/members leaving/blabla).
I really think you miss several insights in how this technology works. And repeating that this is a pyramid scheme doesn’t make it any valid.
A pyramid scheme is a business model that recruits members via a promise of payments or services for enrolling others into the scheme, rather than supplying investments or sale of products or services. As recruiting multiplies, recruiting becomes quickly impossible, and most members are unable to profit; as such, pyramid schemes are unsustainable and often illegal.
In case of SAFE you aren’t promised anything by anyone and you don’t need to enroll any other into this technology. There’s also no limit on the amount of users, just like BitTorrent or Skype. If you want to use it, fine. If you don’t nobody really cares. It’s a service. So your whole comparison isn’t accurate IMO.
There’s a risk of over-thinking it, with a priori reasoning. Not all the behaviours of BTC would have been predicable before it arrived. Misean economists would have said it was impossible, since it does not have any tangible value apart from money. So I am inclined to wait and see.
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I know, what nobody cares. And i know what i can’t change direction and noone will cancel safecoin and network model as it exists now.
I’ll be glad to use this network for my personal purposes and interrests in current realization and i’ll be glad to support this network in GNU-looks-like realization.
There is no risks or overthinking, think more and watch far - always good. Maidsafe will be great platform for money, barely legal, but still legal.
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Read Digipl links. We had this discussion last summer. It provides a lot of information that debunks your theory.
Maidsafe will be great platform for money, barely legal, but still legal.
No such thing as “legal.” We do what we want.
There is a two different type of mentality, “Is that even legal” or “Is that the right thing to do?”
First statement, it simply means they are slave to the system, and living in fear.
Second statement, it simply means they are aware of their own actions, and consequences. They are free.
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Yes, you’re right. Not blocked yet.
If goverment decide to block… 1st - check on protocol lvl in DC. 2nd - check servers in DC. 3rd - invoice for owners and canceling.
It’s simple to handle all nodes from datacenters. Except home users, they can’t hide well because most of them (~all) doesn’t have hardware access to their servers.
There have been discussions on the protocol level blocking, and the system is designed to obscure the protocol so that it appears as any other encrypted packet. Good enough to pass the Great Firewall of China. So the authorities need more than checking protocol.
Also the majority of nodes are expected to be in private residences scattered across the world. Data Centres are only being used at the moment by MAIDSAFE for testing purposes.
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