Moderation / crowdfunding

“Project Decorum - Crowdsale” went off-top. Continue the discussion about mods and crowdfunding in this topic please. Thank you.

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You are the marketing guy for Decorum…right?
So are you then going for the small money? How does this model actually reward investors and how does your statement not contradict the sales pitch that advertisers will find value in “clike.”.These advertisers would appear to not only have to be not “big”, but also have to mind their manners and not even be guaranteed advertising space as users can ignore them. Also surely “Clike” would be of little interest to advertisers until such a time as the Decorum forum had reached some massive Facebook level of use. I’m thinking this is overly optimistic and certainly not likely to happen anytime soon.
I’ve only read first 30 ish posts, but can’t help noticing how informed all the mods seem to be about this project… :smile:
Unfortunately, I won’t be investing, which is a shame really because I liked a lot about the idea, just not the model and what’s planned.
A cynic would say that the mods (as a clique and behind closed doors) have found a way to get paid by the community to run a de-centralised forum - again in a centralised private way.
The investors do not appear to benefit in any way and the explanations of where the “value” comes from seem contradictory and wildly over optimistic. The “buy today because we’re only selling 10X higher later” sounds a bit ponzi or whatever the correct term is - this seems to be exacerbated by the idea to tie coin issuance to price, it appears you are introducing artificial scarcity. Maybe the mining aspect addresses this apparent lack of resource backing, but I’m not quite grasping it…
I’d say that this again could have included the larger community in some way, or at least properly reward investors with something with a foreseeable tangible value.
Who decides the direction of this project? I mean it is stated that some of the crowdsale funds will invest in other projects etc to project Decorum’s benefit. What does this mean? Who benefits and how?
I’m thinking these coins could easily have represented votes for the investors as to which direction the project went or reward systems etc…oh well…ho hum. I’ll have to wait for the more community/investor involving/rewarding fork I suppose.
I thought this was it, but should have known better… :sob:
Loved all the initial idea…

@Al_Kafir AFAIK the mods had no more to do with this project than anyone else in the community. Certainly not as a group, and certainly not myself. I knew nothing in advance of anything posted about it on the forum.

I invested, not because I saw it as making money, but because I wanted to support @Seneca who I recognise is a good guy, clear thinker, high integrity IMO, with original ideas that I wanted him to be able to develop. Ideas which are very different from what I was trying for with SAFEpress, and which are I think much more aligned with your participatory goals than SAFEpress. I imagine a lot of people here invested to support @Seneca and his ideas, with the possibility (or not) of financial gain only a secondary factor. I would probably have donated if it were a kickstarter project instead. Same with @dallyshalla & SafeX, @whiteoutmashups and of course MaidSafe.

@Seneca happens to be a mod, @fergish happens to be a mod, but they are mods and involved in things like Decorum and various activities (such as the Wiki, safenetwork.org and Safe Crossroads) not out of any conspiracy, or as a clique, but because they’re all very committed to Project SAFE.

It makes perfect sense that several very passionate and committed people here ended up being moderators - and it makes no sense the same people would hang up their principles once they become moderators. And I can assure you that haven’t, because I’ve seen no evidence of that - only the opposite. And I’m not a moderator! :wink: Pool queues at the ready buddy :slight_smile:

I’m sorry you see a mod conspiracy so often - perhaps they could give you behind the scenes access if there’s a chance it would put your mind at rest. If so it might save a lot of misunderstanding and unproductive distrustful insinuations, rebuttals and groundless fears.

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No, actually. I have acted as an advisor and am a supporter for the project and will continue to do so as appropriate. I’d love to get some kickback for the effort I’ve put in, but there is no such arrangement or plan. (Probably should be, though, come to think of it. )

I have taken the time to do exactly the same regarding Decorum that I have for the last 2 years for the SAFE Network and SafeX and other activities that catch my imagination: looked deeply, been enthusiastic if what I see is cool, and use my abilities to communicate to share what I see.

I’m a mod because I was trusted enough to be asked to be. I’ve not been super active as a mod, but do what I can. Believe it or not, there’s no great endorphin rush from exerting all the vast, life-and-death power that goes with the position. It’s actually fairly thankless, especially when you pipe up. :unamused:

I call it as I see it. You are quite welcome to see it differently. You’re even welcome to question whether my judgment is sound. I could be wrong. Don’t help out Decorum if you don’t want to, or think if you won’t benefit from doing so. That’s been made clear.

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@melvin and @polpolrene were aware because we three are all Dutch, and we often talk about SAFE and lots of other things on Telegram (Dutch politics etc). @fergish was aware because he interviewed me and afterwards we kept talking.

I do, by sticking to the vision and incorporating feedback from the community.

You’re reading too much into it. I was merely considering potential projects that could provide useful features, for example a SAFE Browser that directly increases security for users of Decorum’s products. Something like that might qualify for financial support. Useful libraries/API’s are another example.

This would have resulted in a handful of whales being dominant. If you want to risk the direction of a project like this to be controlled by selfish financial interest, that would be the way to go. At least people here have come to know me, some more than others, true, but everyone can review the 1300 posts I made on this forum over the past two years.

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I indeed new it was coming. Just like the rest here on the forum. I’ve heard it was close on Telegram but I don’t have any more details about the project than anyone here that reads in on the topics. And I wouldn’t want to know more than others to be honest. I’m a fan of all crowdfund projects here. No matter who does them. I have some SEC and I have some Project Decorum Coins (when they arrive after the crowdsale), but I just bought them in the exchange/crowdsale just like everybody else can. Same for MAID. Mods never get a heads up that some client/update is coming. For any “insider information” we have to spy the devs on GitHub just like anybody else ;-).

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My understanding that you were involved stems from your statement on the announcement of the crowdsale that you “looked forward to help buid it” - did I misunderstand this? Are you stating that positions as devs/promoters etc have not already been decided to a degree and that positions will be advertised to the larger community?

Nobody “happens” to be a mod, you appointed them. and herein lies my problem, the same problem that I keep bringing up - there are massive conflicts of interest and potential abuses of power inherent within the modding system.
The current situation has now deteriorated to the point that at least 1 mods conflicting role is to promote 1 particular app - obviously to the detriment of any competing apps.
Let’s take “Synereo” for example; this is a project that has a thread on this forum in which you vehemently disagreed with the fundamental idea of promoting posts/material by “amping” up the volume so to speak.

This is a very interesting exchange where you appear to make all the arguments against your own forum system at the same time as fundamentally disagreeing with theirs - its bizarre. Not only can the mods here promote projects they are involved in and advertise and “steal attention” to a captive forum audience, but they can also decide the prominence given to other projects.
Anyway…I cannot put a cigarette paper between the two different systems of paid promotion. Whether you “amp up” with Synereo or “boost” with Decorum - the fundamental concept is the same, so my question is how can you fundamentally on principle object to one, yet can’t wait to help build the other?
Here are some snippets:[quote=“happybeing, post:24, topic:2345, full:true”]
Ugh, Synereo is not what I want to see. “Money controls the system” is destroying our world, and my vision is different from this.
[/quote]

I found the explanation of Synereo given to be quite clear and easy to understand and it is also something that could run on Safenet apparently. Now of the two, it looks like Synereo is more community focussed and involving and the limited coin supply gives some kind of ownership to the participants - what ownership do Decorum participants have?. Now apart from this the only other difference between the two concepts is that Decorum decided to give prominence/weight to non paid for likes - thereby decreasing further any potential value of the coins.
Perhaps you could explain how this seemingly less community owned/rewarded scheme addresses all your fundamental objections to paid promotions in a way that Synereo didn’t? - just to clarify[quote=“happybeing, post:56, topic:2345”]
I’m still fundamentally untrusting of a system that sells influence, even if that influence only extends within more localised groups.
[/quote]

Yes, as far as I know he only said it out of mutual interest in developing websites/apps on SAFE. I haven’t ever conversed about Project Decorum with him in private. In fact, I think I never ever conversed with @happybeing in private at all.

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I see…would this be in the same manner that you and the other current mods on this forum incorporate feedback from the community? I, along with others have made numerous suggestions in regard to democratising and improving transparency and accountability to the community. Can you please give the community some feedback on what your current track record is for “incoporating feedback from the community” - so we have something to go on?
This is going to be centralised around yourself then, rather than decided by your investor community…right[quote=“Seneca, post:216, topic:8474”]
Who benefits and how?

You’re reading too much into it
[/quote]
Am I? Maybe you’re not reading enough of what I’m asking…if the project is popular due to having many features paid for by the community - who benefits financially? What happens to any profits/excess funds…you decide right?..based on community feedback of course etc etc…[quote=“Seneca, post:216, topic:8474”]
(me)
I’m thinking these coins could easily have represented votes for the investors as to which direction the project went or reward systems etc

This would have resulted in a handful of whales being dominant. If you want to risk the direction of a project like this to be controlled by selfish financial interest, that would be the way to go
[/quote]
There are ways to mitigate this - is Safex going to controlled by selfish financial interest? Surely centralising all decisions around 1 person is antithetical to Safe ideals and much more likely to be controlled by selfish financial interest.[quote=“Seneca, post:216, topic:8474”]
At least people here have come to know me
[/quote]

I don’t know you from Adam and there are many instances on this very forum that I have pointed out total inconsistencies in what people say or profess to believe, then act in a totally different manner when given the opportunity if its to their benefit. To ask this particular community to rely on “trust” in any one individual, when this is exactly the one thing we’re trying to get rid of!..lol…the very reason that Maidsafe are developing what it is and smart contracts are around is so that we don’t have to trust any 1 individual. :smile:

http://blog.synereo.com/2015/03/27/how-amps-work/

Removing this and splitting it simply adds fuel to what @AlKafir is saying.
I don’t believe that there was any collusion behind the scenes by mods, that’s just my opinion. That said I do think there should be a clear line between mods and people promoting anything especially other projects on any forum. My feeling is just as many other folks the mods are excited about what Decorum may accomplish. Perhaps more thought needs to go into what mods are allowed to do and say while they wear that hat.
I remember some folks voicing concern when Danniel was running his sale on this forum. A solution needs to be had as to how people are allowed to use this platform to raise money for SAFE related projects. Last thing SAFE needs is a crowdsale gone wrong and to be associated therewith.

Yes, as usual @Al_Kafir you have jumped to conclusions that are wrong. As @Seneca has confirmed - my “support and help” has nothing to do with any expected or agreed involvement in Project Decorum - it was me giving him my energetic encouragement. As you should realise, I don’t have the time to offer much if any practical help beyond a small financial contribution. I also have other fish to fry :slight_smile:

I agree that my stance on CLikes and Synereo (thingies) appears to a degree contradictory. I was very challenging to them due both to my concerns about their model of paid promotion and their repeated inability to respond adequately to those concerns. At that time they either suggested that advertising was OK, because flowers do it (for example) or would not work in the way I feared, but without being able to explain why. If during those discussions you understood the what and why, you are a much better analyst and programmer than I, and should seriously consider ditching your paintbrush and diving into helping a perfect you can believe in.

More recently Synereo and I revisited this discussion and their responses were much more candid and helpful. They answered most of my points effectively, but left one final point of concern. I am though now much less concerned about Synereo’s plans than I was - though I remain very much less clear about the motivations and goals of those building and backing it than I am with Project Decorum. I feel that I know @Seneca far better, and so am willing to give him support that I will not be giving to Synereo at this stage. (Also, he’s building on SAFEnetwork - they are not. If they were I’d certainly be more interested). Perhaps that will change and I’ll be converted! Perhaps not :slight_smile:

I am still uncomfortable with the idea of paid promotion on Synereo and indeed in Decorum. However, Decorum is being built on SAFEnetwork, and is very well aligned with it’s goals IMO, so I don’t see it as a problem having to lump my discomfort and hold my judgement on one aspect, while there is so much else I like about the project.

@Al_Kafir you seem to want clean lines, black and white categories - and have put the moderators and @Seneca into a “bad/don’t trust on anything” category. This is leading you to into prejudice, and making repeated misjudgements and unjust statements, and it is very tiresome for everyone you take against, and repeatedly smear with false accusations.

I’ve corrected your incorrect assumptions about myself and Project Decorum, but you again made incorrect and misleading statements (the same ones as before) about me and moderators which I am just fed up of. I know it is not only moderators who are sick of these, more than one longstanding member has expressed their frustration over these kinds of remarks and corrective responses, so I will leave it at that. There is much I respect and like about you, but this annoys me. You’ve made those points, they’ve been answered, your bringing them up again and again is unhelpful because you haven’t got anything constructive to offer.

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@polpolrene hiding @AlKafir posts in meta is total BS and in so doing makes me believe more of what he has to say.

The topic is about the crowdsale of Decorum. The opener of the topic says:

It went off-topic to other crowdfund projects and mods being involved or not. All discussion is here. All replies were moved to here as well. This topic is open for that discussion.

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At the very least make it visible to the public not hidden here where nobody will see it.

I made it clear there was a split.

It’s in the topic. It even links to this topic.

@Savage the problem is that it’s not what must people want to be discussing on this topic, and it has been done to death several times before, and @Al_Kafir hadn’t got anything new to add.

It’s the same old accusations and anyone new is going to read it at face value, without the history unless it is answered. But answering it on topic endlessly isn’t any good either. I think it’s the best decision to move it - not ideal but better. It can’t just be left, and it’s unreasonable to have to respond again and again to the same accusations. And it messes up the main discussion.

@Al_Kafir this is the project you’ve been waiting for though man you’ve been demanding!! A forum that democratizes etc; You wanted a new forum software… HERE IT IS; the ants are coming @seneca please don’t let us down!!

I think it’s a bit of a non-discussion. I mean, in every project in general, there are close insiders, almost-close insiders, all the way to outsiders and the ones completely not knowing what’s going on. The insiders might happen to be personal coaches, friends, technical advisors, family, lawyers, mods on a forum, colleagues, etc. etc. Who cares? This Decorum project is open source, with open (public) discussion, it’s a free choice to either contribute or not, so I’m openminded about who might or might not be insider.

Furthermore, I wouldn’t want it otherwise: @Seneca is totally in charge of where this is heading. Multiple captains on one ship, it doesn’t work.

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No…it’s not actually. I had hoped for a project that the community was involved in and investors were properly rewarded and had a say - Synereo is much more aligned to what I envisaged.
The similarities between the 2 are striking and I’d support whoever had the idea first. Decorum appears to be Synereo only without the limited coin supply to give some sort of community ownership and instead has ring-fenced, privatised and centralised the power. The “value” proposition in Synereo I get, but this appears to have been stripped out in Decorum by the proposition to give weight to unpaid likes. There appears to be no realistic investment opportunity whatsoever.
Definitely not what I have been “demanding” and wouldn’t touch with a barge- pole. :smile:

You know, Al, no one is stopping you from making or getting someone to make exactly the sort of app/protocol you wish and run it on the SAFE Network and make is as democratic as you want. Nor is anyone stopping you from making a competing forum in exactly the form and guidelines set you think most workable.

You can have it as open or closed as you want. You can announce it on this forum just the same as the other projects discussed and crowdsales discussed. Why don’t you do that? And when you do, you can count on mods participating if they find the project and its principals competent and trustworthy, and not participating if they don’t.

If you have a cool app, I’d be happy to talk about it on the SAFE Crossroads podcast, just like I have the others. Has nothing to do with the fact that I am also a mod.