Merits or otherwise of UBI

Yes I understand it. And I also understand that US is going to bankrupt or hyperinflate the currency, since those are the only option how to pay the debt created by UBI and other social experiments.

What western socialists do not understant is, that there is not a difference between Western or Eastern socialists. The only difference is elapsed time. Those from East were allowed to try it and failed in 100% cases. Socialists form South America or Asia did not do better. Now the Western world is about to find out the hard way, that it does not work and sooner or later they will destroy the productive part of the population and collapse. There is not a free lunch. Every time someone takes money in Taxes, it takes it from those who know how to earn them and gives them to those, who do not know how to earn them. And by taxes I mean both, taxes and printing + inflation tax.

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History shows you will be wrong. We’ve known this for 100s of years already:

Have you not noticed that average rent and house prices approximately follow net average earnings? Rents rise to capture unallocated income. House prices also reflect similarly with (interest rates adjusted) mortgage costs.

Those who have property will increase rents and prices until it is the maximum the market can bear. Why else would they do otherwise? Given most properties are clustered around valuable locations and planning is often impossible outside of them, it is a game of monopoly.

I feel the law of rent gets ignored over and over and it is depressing. Until you prevent rent seekers capturing all the gains from progress, the average person will not feel much of the benefit of it. Meanwhile, those with spare properties will hoover it all up.

We must tackle the rent seekers first, or they will suck up any benefits from a UBI too.

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Again, the US has been doing this since the 1930s. You act like UBI is going to be doing something different then what is already happening. It is just a different vehicle to deliver the same benefits already given out. You can argue all day that these benefits are draining the economy, and we should wipe them out, and, in principle, I agree with you. The pragmatic side has to win out, though. We are not going to get rid of those systems, so you may as well aim to make them the most efficient you can, which is UBI. UBI is a libertarian concept, first developed by Milton Friedman, a highly conservative/libertarian economist.

Yes, and it is doing it more and more and the collapse is inevitable:

For Explanation, first is debt graph over time.

Second is M1 money supply

Third is Bonds bought by FED.

First chart says, we were spending more than we were able to collect from taxes. No worry, we will spend much more because our spendings are increasing and our tax income is lower and lower compared to what we spend.

Second chart says, hey people, do not worry about inflation, there will not be inflation there will be hyperinflation.

Third one says, until recently foreigners were buying US bonds and it was not a big deal to create bonds and sell them to foreigners. But hey, recently it changed, and foreigners do not believe US will pay them back, or at least pay them back with good enough interest to cover inflation. This means, third chart is going to explode much faster.

In short, there is nothing to stop this insanity and US dollar will implode.

This is how will UBI income look like after that:

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You continue to assume I don’t agree with you. Yes, money printing is out of control, yes, debt is out of control. I see UBI as part of a solution, not doubling down on the problem. It revamps the welfare and tax system and makes it more efficient. The government just saved money, lots of money. All these people leeching off the welfare system still have that choice, but they also have a choice to enter the economy and produce things. The workforce expands, freedom to innovate expands, and we move forward. It also alleviates some of the concerns about automation. Companies will begin to accelerate their automation plans, which drastically raises production, generating wealth.

I don’t argue about positives. Sure there are some, or maybe many. I would love to see a transition of society from working 5 days a week to creativity, inovation and lot of free time etc. I wish everyone wealthy good life with lot of fun and as little finantial stress as possible. But such transition requires wealth to be created to cover that. If a nation can’t produce more than it spends, there is not a place for that. Increasing spending in a situation where debt is exploding will just speed up the collapse. Right now people can at least work and get a sallary to cover theyir needs. Once the currency colapses it will take down everything with it. People will have hard time to feed themselves.

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@wydileie

I do comprehend that obvious fact, and that’s why I stated

as generally as I did.

Agreed.

Irrelevant.

That’s not middle class and those treatments have only served to hide the erosion of the middle class from the unobservant.

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@Antifragile

In fact that’s already happening, myself being a prime example. Always entrepreneurial, I started businesses and employed people from a young age. After realizing how much of my effort was being wasted on government corruption and largesse to the lazy, I sold and shut down everything. Now I only work enough developing software to cover bills, meanwhile I enjoy my life. No job creation, absolutely minimal taxes paid, the corruption and socialism of the US has run off yet another formerly productive member of society.

I would happily work myself to death to help support the truly infirm, and I do charity directly privately, however participating in what the US system has degenerated into would be a choice to allow myself to be exploited for the marginal benefit of others, and I’d rather the entire system collapse.

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If wages kept up with production then I wouldn’t think it was necessary. Automation and human greed lead to this. Government sucks but massive wealth disparity under a capitalist run country that influences policy so much for so long is worse, imho. :man_shrugging:t3:

Adapt.

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They don’t do charity in Germany.
Thats cos Germany has a government that works. No need for charity.
Charity is a crutch for the guilty to try to make themselves feel good while evading their social responsibilities