Merits or otherwise of UBI

I believe in UBI. when will we have economic freedom! then all jobs would be priced accordigly to dificulty and willingness to do it!

A UBI needs a LVT (land value tax) or the income will just get sucked into higher rents and house prices. They are the sinks which suck in disposable income until it becomes required income. The Ricardian Law of Rent will see to that.

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Bing bing bing. Without a LVT (and/or other taxes on e.g. certain forms of capital accumulation, certain forms of consumption), it will crush the professional and small business class and redirect their income to rentiers. UBI needs tax reform, and reform before UBI.

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Why to do another UBI test? It has been tested many times and it always failed. The biggest test is currently running in USA. Since covid started, US government started to send people money for doing nothing. First $600 weekly, then $1200 bonus per person and now $300 weekly. And we already know the results. People are sitting at home, doing nothing. They earn more by doing nothing. Companies are strugling to hire people, since unemployed to not want to work now for their old sallary. Instead of expected 900k new jobs created last month it was created only 230k. There is no recovery. Prices are skyrocketing, since production is lower and demand higher. US dollar is collapsing, all those UBI money are printed from nothing and dollar is paying the price. And this test is running in the richest country, money is printed not taxed and after one year we can clearly say this is a disaster.

For all those dreaming about UBI, you should look into Venezuela, Cuba, Zimbabwe, North Korea, Soviet union. Those are the countries where leaders decided that common people should take money from rich and distribute it to the poor.

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It hasn’t failed.

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They are? I’ve been busier than ever and so has everyone I know. The $600 added is no longer running either I don’t think so no longer earning more that I know of and I figured the point of that in the first place was to not only support people in a blanket attempt with out means testing but also incentivizing people to not go into work and spread the virus because they had to work to make ends meet.

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That isn’t an equitable comparison. In a UBI system, you get paid whether or not you are working. If everyone sitting at home collecting unemployment in the US could still get that money on top of whatever they can earn in the workforce, people would have gone back to work.

We are already taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor. Up to approximately $80K/yr household income, people are receiving more than they are putting into the tax system. This wipes out all that welfare and credits and makes it more efficient.

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Given that most advocated for UBI schemes rely on taxation, their implementation requires some kind of centralized institution to enforce and subsequently run the redistribution. That makes these schemes unsuitable for a decentralized world that projects like SN are attempting to create. There are also other problems, like the fact that UBI schemes ignore the merit signaling aspect of (unequal) income.

These problems can however be addressed in a systematic and permanent way, by looking at the oldest and longest running economic arrangement - the hunters-gatherers “economic system”. There the fundamental economic problem “equality versus efficiency” was elegantly solved by distributing economic goods equally while allocating the psychological signal that motivates people to work unequally (reputation). This arrangement maintains a high degree of economic efficiency, which the longevity of the HG-system proves (estimated 2 mil years). The merit signaling aspect of work is really the key here - just think why today over a billion of people every year are willing to supply labor to a diversity of volunteer projects without the expectation of being paid, while generating massive economic value (over one trillion USD/year).

A modern version of the HG system can be implemented in a distributed fashion, built on the volunteer economy, as the initial source of funding. The key is to introduce a new kind of “volunteer currency” these types of workers could use to reward each other with, in order to gain more reputation. No need to do ICO here; the money is “minted” by the system and rewarded to the worker for their labor as a flat hourly reward. A purchase in this scheme means conversion of money into reputation, which is the real labor supply motivator, not the vision of economic gain. Notice how there is no need for any kind of central institution here that creates the money (ICO, a bank…) and there is no need to redistribute anything, because there is no economic profit that would lead to concentration of money.

An app for this exists, has been tested for several years now and will be implemented on top of (hopefully) SN, once it goes live.

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I agree. The benefits of LVT should deter rent seeking and encourage better investment.

The problem we have had for centuries is the capture of unearned income by the wealthy, at the expense of everyone else. There is no point being given more money, if it is just going to cycle round to higher living costs for most folks, while the wealthy get richer.

Without an LVT of sorts, a UBI just becomes a subsidy for the rich, in the guise of helping the poor. Moreover, getting that money back from the rich will be near impossible.

Unless planning is relaxed to near nothing (not going to happen!), then LVT is the only way I’ve seem to counter the law of rent. Once it is in place, most people would have more disposable income, as the rent/mortgage shrivels. The rent seekers may even invest in technology to move the world forward, instead of holding it back too.

So sure, give a UBI a go once an LVT is in place, but not before. I suspect the UBI may not be needed by then, but it wouldn’t cause the same harm.

Beware of folks pushing raw UBI without considering the law of rent. Rentiers will favour a UBI, as they know it will ultimately be a subsidy for them.

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I believe that just opposite will happen.

maybe you are right!!! if people want to work for less money as they have their needs met with the UBI monthly income!

They won’t get that choice though. Their rent will go up, as will house prices.

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I think there will be a balance on rent and house prices.

maybe even lower prices and rent cause the owner already gets the UBI and some will want something extra by renting out

very interesting! cant wait!

Yup, you are right. It is not the same.

Actually, whole country on all levels is receiving more than putting into tax system. US has +90% more spending than it collected on taxes this year. It is called deficit. Wealthy people not by working but by holding assets. And the tax they pay on that profit is way lower than what they get from price increase thanks to printing and asset buying by FED. They receive much much more than common people.

This central bank fiat prinitng system is a disaster, that enriches rich, by pumping assets they own and remove value from income from working class via inflation. UBI, progresive taxing etc, are very bad techniques that try to solve the problem. But taxes, and any central planned money distribution just makes everything more unnatural and unhealthy. Problems should be solved by curring the source and not by fixing consequence. UBI is trying to fix consquences in very unhealthy way. Taxes penalize not only those who are missusing system but also those who are skilled at creating wealth for whole society. Punishing people that produce by removing ther money makes them less productive. Each cent they have to pay in taxes is removed from process of creating more wealth.

There is no need to tax wealthy, just remove FIAT and bring hard money. The market will solve all those issues caused by FIAT in very short time. Those who earn money based on holding assets that benefit from FIAT prinitng will lose wealth fast. Inflation will stop to steal from all the people. Banking products and stocks gambling will end and people will return to the basics. Wealth will stop to be distributed from working class to speculators. This is the solution. Any centralized fix of a problem that was created by centralized entity will just bring more wood into a fire.

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@moderators any chance we can move/separate the “merits of” UBI discussion and keep this for “opportunities related to”? This is a marketing opportunity whereas discussing UBI doesn’t belong in the Marketing topic. Edit: and below we are now completely off topic @Antifragile.

EDIT: I’d also appreciate it if the insults could be removed @anon57419684

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It’s romanticised, when it’s just a symptom, the cause is the increasing obsolescence of man in the supply chain.
Could that work in theory? Yes, however no government will miss the opportunity to impose all sorts of restrictions on the use of it, not to mention those who qualify for it, conditions will be demanded which will horrify anyone who is not completely apathetic.

@Antifragile

Because ignorant and unprincipled people feel ‘something for nothing’ is viable. UBI, like all social program siren songs, are merely to destroy the middle class. When those who have done the right thing and saved have their savings destroyed, the UBI will be pulled through one mechanism or another and the unneeded masses will be eliminated by the very same people offering the UBI.

The people with all of the power promote the following messages:

  1. Overpopulation
  2. Automation/robotics/AI obviating most jobs as a foregone conclusion
  3. UBI

As if in the automated technocratic future those with the means to eliminate masses will instead share. lol.

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THIS

Please keep @antifragile’s hysterics somewhere the rest of us can ignore.

What you don’t understand, though, is UBI already exists (in the US), wrapped in a convoluted and insane welfare and tax system. Sure, I’d love to live in a libertarian utopia where we wipe out fiat money, eliminate income taxes, etc. etc., but the genie is out of the bottle, and we aren’t going to put it back any time soon, until the world economy collapses and we all have to press a reset button.

UBI seeks to solve the administrative nightmare and horribly inefficient system that is the current welfare system. How much money is wasted on administration and enforcement, just to have tens of millions on the rolls who don’t deserve to be?

As for the middle class being wiped out, they are already receiving massive subsidies in the form of tax credits, personal exemptions and individual deductions. Wipe them out, replace them with UBI, they break even.

Speaking to the topic, it’s an interesting idea if they took ~1% of payouts, and simply distributed it to everyone who has something stored in that section, or something similar TBD. Not enough to grossly affect the economy, but enough to see the numbers tick up slightly and give people that warm fuzzy feeling inside that they are gaining something.