You can say that it is a subsidy from the point of view that all people who initially invested know that there are 4.5 billion tokens and accordingly the price of the token takes into account this knowledge.
In my opinion, this means that all current and future participants subsidize the value of future tokens that the network hodls.
Privacy. Security. Freedom
I’m not entirely sure. I think it is the coin transaction data.
It’s not a subsidy, just like it’s not a “tax” if the network decides to temporarily charge more for PUTs than it needs to pay farmers to stick around. It is simply the network’s savings account being exercised. The network algorithm decides how much to charge for uploads and how much it is willing to pay for resources. If those don’t match, inflow or outflow from the savings account is required to make ends meet. Do you consider your savings account a subsidy when an unexpected automobile repair needs to happen today but is going to cost you two months salary that you don’t yet have? No, it’s your money and you use it as you need to. The same could be said for Safe.
We have yet to see whether the final farming algorithm will cover both inflow and outflow to the savings account. Even if it is a one-way outflow from the network to the farmers, it’s best described as a ‘gift’ or a ‘reward’ from the network in return for helping it grow. Subsidy is a dirty word.
No you cannot. That doesn’t make sense as a subsidy.
Subsidy is someone paying extra rewards (nearly always for a set period). There is no one actively paying this imaginary subsidy.
Show me where in the reward algorithm that there is a factor for paying this subsidy. It has to be something separate from the normal minimalist algorithm that is being programmed in. A subsidy is something that would be paid on top of that and its not there.
Please stop with this talk that makes it seems like Maidsafe is trying to artificially make rewards more than normal and have them lying to node operators that normal rewards will be reduced when the subsidy is removed. At no time is there some imaginary factor that will be removed.
Subsidy is something to pay more than normal. No one can show this because its not there.
The MAID is simply pre purchase of tokens to use on the network and cannot magically become a imaginary subsidy
No its simply paying rewards for work done and what the market demands because farmers come and go depending on the price of the rewards they receive. The most you can call it is the network living beyond its means while the market readjusts causing farmers to come or go depending on whats needed
Wow, got quite a bit happening there. What gets me though is if it’s pay-to-GET then that’s surely a huge hurdle to these systems, right? People are just so used to free internet browsing. Maybe it’s going to be more like a netflix/gaming subscription model. Will be interesting to see how it goes.
I was wondering how big is filecoin, like, is 5 EiB big compared to google or facebook etc?
It’s hard to say, but these old articles give some datapoints:
From Sep 2013: Total disk storage systems capacity shipped reached 8.2 exabytes, growing 21.5% year over year.
This gives a 2021 shipped capacity of 42 exabytes (assuming 20% growth every year)
This what-if.xkcd (also from 2013) estimates google has about 15 EiB storage.
Perhaps this can let us put some bounds on the potential network size? I reckon a data storage network running today could potentially be up to 500 EiB but probably not 5000 EiB. Crazy numbers I know but if anyone has some other ways to estimate upper bounds on network size that would be interesting to see.
They can use the Sia model - a slow freemium and a fast paid package:
I’ve said it before - we too most likely will see Safe Portals through which people will upload for free.
Privacy. Security. Freedom
Someone or something (as in an algo). But I won’t quibble over a word. For the rest of this, let’s just go with “Farming reward”.
You know very well that they haven’t determined this yet:
Why? There is no “lying” to anyone if it’s in the code at beta. The question is what is the aim of that code. I know this has been discussed over the years ad-nauseum, but I have looked and I don’t see where @maidsafe has ever given any definitive answer.
The MAID have nothing to do with it. It’s the tokens the network can create, not the MAID that were issued.
As you have admitted in your other post on Jan 30th (that I quoted above) … and as appears to still be the case, the algo is “being developed” … so this is all hypotheticals.
I would like some clarity here from @maidsafe though. What is the current intention of the bulk of tokens (~85%?) that the network is allowed to create … is it:
1.) a buffer
2.) a reward payout bonus like bitcoin uses to attract miners.
3.) a mix of both.
4.) neither!?
5.) undecided.
And it falls down here. The Algo has no plans nor is there any talk of introducing a subsidy into the algo. Additionally no one in the development or marketing is calling it a subsidy.
Its a till float, thats all. And trying to say its a subsidy goes against accepted terms
It is llying to artificually say your rewards are better than they really are and we tricked you because it will drop when the subsidies are removed. The lying is that there is NO subsidy being promoted by anyone other than calling a till float a subsidy. Does your supermarket call its till floats a subsidy to the company or the customer?
It is as it always is a till float. That is the accepted term for a buffer in the till to cover the till until enough money has come in to cover change etc.
wow man, yer like the thought police now. I’ll determine how I use my own words, thanks. By my understanding of the word, a subsidy can be contractual - and so can an algo.
Code is law. There is no lying to anyone if they run open source code.
Till float is a buffer and I know you’ve argued in the past that the network tokens are a buffer … but again, I’ve not seen anywhere in the forum where @maidsafe has confirmed that. Maybe I’m flat-out wrong. Please “show me, don’t tell me”.
When you wish to use terms different to others and its your right to, we can also tell you that you are wrong to. So please do not take what i saw as forcing anything. But the difference between a subsidy and buffer/float is chalk and cheese.
There is no third part introducing funds into the system to be used to do the subsidy. The definition you posted showed that.
The network algo is being designed (as stated by dev team) to keep costs as low as possible with no fat or profit making. The rewards are based in that as well as the purchases. Like most businesses do they adjust their purchasing and sale prices according to the conditions and no one calls that subsiding simply because it is not. The same for Safe’s algo.
The 80-85% of tokens available as a buffer is not being used to artificially increase rewards (subsidy) otherwise this would have been in the papers and mentioned. There is no term to remove anything once 80% of 4 billion is paid out. Yes it would be possible to add in a term to the algo to use the buffer up subsiding rewards or purchase price, but it has not ben proposed, nor is being suggested by the dev team as a thing to do. But of course no one paid for that to be done which means it would be hard then to call it a true subsidy anyhow.
In fact the network could have been designed to not charge for uploads and pay rewards from the 80-85% left in its buffer and perhaps reduce reward size over time. But that still is not a subsidy.
Chia is up to about 3 EiB total storage.
Also they are now trading on exchanges, price is currently around $1000 USD / XCH
3 exchanges: Chia Price in USD: XCH Live Price Chart & News | CoinGecko
OkEx, Dcoin, Lbank
1 TiB is currently farming about 0.003 xch per day, so about $3 per TiB per day at the current exchange rate.
Looks like they’re doing about 1000 tx per hour on average, maybe I’m reading this chart wrong though, I’m not sure.
Different to others or just different to you. It’s an assumption on your part to think that you know how everyone feels about how a word is used.
I have no horse in this race - buffer, subsidy, or mix … I suppose I’d be against a complete subsidy without buffer. But I will wait for maidsafe to confirm either in words or code. I’m gonna try to not make any assumptions.
So I will retract any notion that I gave before that there will be a subsidy, and simply assert that we don’t know what the farming rewards algo will be at the moment.
It should be pointed out that these are skynet portals/gateways and are a centralising factors. Free access is essentially subsidised access by the gateway host.
Safe Network on the other had will provide free GETs with direct network access, in a fully decentralized way.
How relevant is this to us?
Storj has 30 PB capacity:
Privacy. Security. Freedom
Chia now at 12 EB (chart), two weeks ago was 4 EB. We’ve all seen news about it leading to disk supply shortages but I hadn’t realized it grew this fast. Now more than double the size of filecoin. Wonder what shape this graph will have over the next months and years. Pretty exponential just now.
I expect another player (Syntropy - Noia) to grow fast soon - staking is a very powerful way to create a high token price and attract participants:
Privacy. Security. Freedom
Chia sounds to me like lottery from what i have herd and seen
They have already pools, so you can farm a bit regularly.
