Maintaining the value which was gained in the crowdsale


#1

A lot of “money” was gained in the crowdsale in the form of Bitcoin and Mastercoin, both of which are very volatile. Has it all been kept as Bitcoin and Mastercoin?

I suggest that other options are considered in order to keep at least some of this value in a less volatile way. One such option is to exchange the BItcoin/Mastercoin for BitUSD on the Bitshares X platform. This way the value would be preserved relative to USD.

Has anything like this been talked about?


#2

Down vote.

-During Posting this- I naively thought this was advertising; though I will not delete as this thread demonstrates a valuable precedent where sincere inquiry was mistaken for commercial advantage.


#3

Any particular reason for the down vote?
I’m curious regarding what was done with the money from the crowdsale. My initial assumption is that it was left in Bitcoin and Mastercoin? It could be considered risky to keep it all in Bitcoin and Mastercoin, when there are many other options.

The purposes of the topic were intended to be to establish what was done with the crowdsale funds, and to see if alternatives have been discussed.

Perhaps it is not “allowed” to exchange the Bitcoin from the crowdsale for other things like BitUSD or Maidsafecoin?


#4

I think @dallyshalla downvoted because he or she thinks you’re here to promote Bitshares ? If so, ignore that and wait until you’ll get an answer from someone who can talk for Maidsafe the company to give you an answer. If that wasn’t dallyshalla’s reason for downvoting he or she will elaborate I guess.

P.S.
I believe the money that was raised is held in Bitcoin and Mastercoin at this moment.


#5

There was a thread explaining this in the past, and from recollection about 1000 bitcoins were converted to cash, and the rest were put into cold storage. Though I cannot find the thread, after having searched.

@Melvin I did perceive this thread as an advertisement for that thing.

Also, USD is way more risky than anything - a guaranteed 2.3% loss each year, or 2300% loss over 100 years. vs bitcoin and 250,000 % increase in 5 years.
http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/


#6

I can see why you’d have thought I was advertising. I didn’t realise at first that this is my first post on this forum. I used to be on a couple of the Maidsafe Google Groups before this forum was made, but have struggled to find time for stuff since then, so have a lot of catching up to do!

I also couldn’t find any threads relating to my question. I am confident that project SAFE will be a success, and am now wondering if some funds should at some point be used to buy MaidSafecoin or Safecoin? One of the things I need to catch up on is how the success of the project is going to translate into adding value to Safecoin. I believe this has been extensively discussed on the forum.

Funnily enough, I was just checking what the price of Bitcoin was on the day of the crowdsale. In terms of USD, it was almost exactly the same as it is today!

I don’t have a problem with a decision to keep the funds in Bitcoin if that is what MaidSafe want, but I thought I should point out other options (especially since BitUSD has only just become available). If it has been decided to keep Bitcoin and see what happens with the value, that’s fair enough. If, however, the value NEEDS to be preserved in order to enable future work, this is another matter in terms of risk.

If there is any possibility of doing something different with the funds in order to hedge risks, there are loads of options and I think it could be an interesting discussion. It would even be possible to try to grow the funds by managing them under increased exposure to risk!


#7

So much of SAFE Network is recycling coins; a SafeCoin has intrinsic value, and that value is network resources. It will be nice to steer away from this USD greed craze. Rather notice how the more SafeCoins you have to more of the network is at your disposal.


#8

The reason I mentioned the monetary value of SafeCoin was that I was wondering about keeping some of the funds from the crowdsale in the form of SafeCoins rather than Bitcoins at some point in the future.

I am concerned only with enabling MaidSafe to grow and produce all it needs to in order to make Project SAFE as successful as possible. I would hate to see this being limited by a lack of funds. Hopefully the funds are enough as they are, but I don’t know whether or not this is the case, so I raised this topic.

The volatility in the price of Bitcoin can be a problem for startups and crowdsourced projects, so I was really only wondering if it’s a problem for Maidsafe.

I envisage SAFE’s success as being a large step towards a better future for all. My ideas may be rubbish, but I don’t know that unless I expose them to people who know more.

If what I’m suggesting isn’t useful it’ll be ignored - no big deal. If it is useful, then I’ll be glad I said something.
It’s only an idea…


#9

Bitshares, shitcoin?


#10

The same was discussed in recent topics. Maybe you should try to use the search function.

Really? How?


#11

@Runswick Maintaining the value is important, but your talk to convert this to BitUSD is strange. I’m ready to pay whatever to see project Maidsafe finished, even my last dime, because it’s well worth it.


#12

Oh my word. I don’t understand the lack of constructive discussion here. I’m actually quite disheartened.

Essentially I only wanted to inquire as to whether keeping the crowdsale funds as Bitcoin is a decision which had been thought through. I think it’s worthwhile diversifying, unless the associated risk of Bitcoin volatility has been consciously deemed acceptable, after thorough consideration. This only seems sensible to me. What if the value of Bitcoin were to tank like Mastercoin? Would this not cause problems?

I had used the search function to look for related topics (as had @dallyshalla) but had no luck with words like “Bitcoin”, “funds”, “funding” and “crowdsale”. Thanks for the links @janitor - I found some relevant information on what happened with the funds.

My mention of Bitshares X has now been overly focused upon. I have stated that this is only one option for consideration. I didn’t want to type a tl;dr essay as the first post. I hadn’t at that point ascertained any facts about what had been done with the crowdsale funds, and therefore didn’t know whether or not my proposed topic of discussion was even valid. For this reason I picked one example of an alternative option (Bitshares X), which I believed could most simply illustrate a way of hedging against the risk of having all our eggs the Bitcoin basket.

I had anticipated responses along the lines of:

  • The funds are held in Bitcoin because it is believed it will do well over the time periods we’re looking at.
  • We have made sure that we have enough for all the necessary expenses and if Bitcoin holds it’s value it will be an added bonus.
  • We have considered other options, and none were feasible/suitable for various reasons, so we are holding Bitcoin.
  • Maybe there is too much risk in holding entirely Bitcoin! Let’s discuss some options on how we can ensure we have enough funds if, for some reason, the price of Bitcoin plummets.

I know where you’re coming from with this. I don’t know how long the crowdsale funds are intended to last. Over the next year or two, however, USD will lose some value to inflation, but isn’t very likely to fail catastophically. It’s highly debatable that it is “way more risky than anything”. Bitcoin’s risk profile is very different, and in many ways much higher than with USD.

Not helpful without an explanation. I suppose you’ve disregarded the details in my posts and think I’m just promoting Bitshares X?

I’m gonna get slammed for mentioning it. BitUSD is pegged to USD and is collateralised by BTSX.
Other crypto stuff is available :smile:

I love your sentiment here! I don’t think I could give my last dime, but I have wondered what would happen if the project ended up struggling financially. I have imagined that the community would willingly come together and donate plenty of money, expecting nothing in return but the completion of the project.
Is maintaining the value from the crowdsale important enough to discuss ways of doing it? Or has it been deemed that there is no problem, and all can be left well enough alone?

It hasn’t been my intention, but sorry if I have come across as a jerk. I think sometimes I don’t communicate things very well. Thanks to those who have been helpful or constructive in this topic.

I have looked for a way to delete a topic on this forum, and can’t find anything with the search function. If I want to delete this topic can I do it myself, can I request it from a moderator, or is it impossible?


#13

All opinions are valuable when made honestly, I believe you have done this, no need to remove. Keep thinking and prodding and sometimes being perhaps misrepresented is a side effect of investigation. Don’t worry about it at all. If your honest then your not wrong. Its a valid opinion to watch out for longevity and I am happy you did. We need to keep watchin out for such things. Cheers @Runswick I think you did the right thing, I am the worlds worst at putting things across so at worst your in my camp :smiley: which may not be a great place, but keep enquiring!


#14

#15

I asked because I’m skeptical about its ability to do that. Here’s what they say:

Whereas your bank uses your house as collateral, BitShares X uses BTSX as collateral. If the value of the collateral falls relative to BitUSD then BitShares X will automatically cover your loan by selling the BTSX held as collateral for BitUSD and giving the borrower the BTSX left over.

Someone wishing to borrow $100 dollars from the BitShares DAC must find $200 worth of equity (bitshares) to back the loan. Lets assume they have mined $200 worth of equity, they can mortgage this equity and receive 100 BitUSD in exchange for a loan on their equity that can only be cleared by paying back 100 BitUSD.

From: http://invictus-innovations.com/bitshares-as-dac-bank/

It seems you need to deposit a 200% collateral and it’s all in the same cryptocurrency (I need BitSharesX to buy collateral, so it doesn’t seem like it does much…).


#16

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Market_Peg