MaidSafeCoin (MAID & eMAID) - Price & Trading topic (Part 2)

That looks very promising and would it not be superb if this loooonnnnngggg weekend of so many llooonnnnggg discussions had a measurable outcome?

@Sotros25 this could work and would impact the CEX work and possibly in a good way. Also interesting if they can wrap like this then conversion to safecoin is perhaps a lot easier.

So this could get us on DEX pretty fast and also an easy one for CEX to list us?

EDIT
@DeusNexus - could you check and let us know what you think? It’s not ignoring your work in any way, I know you are keen to get something done and perhaps this is a shortcut?

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A little more information on Wrapped.

!

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There is very little liquidity for WZEC and because the fees in the ETH network are huge at the moment, it is not good for small transactions:

https://info.uniswap.org/token/0x4a64515e5e1d1073e83f30cb97bed20400b66e10

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More info:
The Wrapped website only lists seven assets for purchase but Coinbase lists 14 “Wrapped” coins and all of them have actual trading volume. Prices range from $.04 for Wrapped Bind (WBIND) to $57,174.00 for Wrapped Bitcoin (WBTC), about the same current price as BTC. For those interested, Wrapped Virgin Gen-0 CryptoKitties (WVGO) is going for $635.00.

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Well I couldn’t stay away and was blown away from the comments in the last few days over waiting a measly six months to see if this mind blowing theory works, That’s six months to nibble away if and before the theory becomes practice.

Hey everyone. I am going to test the brand new feature called the slow mode feature on this topic for a time. I expect it will be only a few hours and if it goes bad then shorter.

Please understand I picked this topic because it is reasonably fast moving at times and is not a development style topic.

Two issues with slow mode.

  1. It is set at a reasonable fast time frame of just 4 minutes for this test

  2. People will need to change the way they respond. By this I mean that they will have to reply to everyone they wanted to within one post.

If anyone wants to write up their opinion/experiences with this test, they can start/add to a topic in #meta with opinions/discussions/criticisms. I made a topic New Feature - Slow mode to discuss or criticise this feature or the use of it.

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I will try to make all code of the current state of how it is public.

Few issues that are already pointed out by the community which are:

Centralized Node holding all MAID.omni and issuing MAID.erc20
The demo that we have is currently using this approach as it’s the only node running and that makes it prone to attacks, distrust and easier to fail if the server goes offline.

Solution
Go with a distributed multi-signature approach where the collective holds the funds and with every new node becomes more secure. This would require both the smart-contract on ethereum to have multi-signature signing to issue MAID.erc20 as well as multi-signature for the address(es) holding MAID.omni and BTC (required for withdrals!)

Structure

  1. Front-end website that hosts the swap. Will act as interface to issue MAID.erc20 or burn MAID.erc20 by sending MAID.omni or burning MAID.erc20.
  2. A server (can be multiple, like a load balancer, requires very minimal resources but ensures uptime) that would distribute the front-end API calls to all independent nodes. All it does is forward the data, any transaction would still require all or high % (2/3?) of the nodes to sign that funds are available or burned before any transaction is performed.
  3. Independent node, they will have fully synchronized omnicore node (txindex=1 and experimental-btc-balances=1) and not completely sure yet but might also require a light ethereum node for the smart-contract.

Fees

Receiving MAID.omni from user, expected to mint ERC20 token.
Requires the contract to pay for gas fees in ETH or with the help of the Gas Station Network allow others to pay for it who volunteer to be a relayer.
Burning MAID.erc20 from user, expected to withdraw MAID.omni from the swap.
Requires either the user or the contract to pay for burn fees, and then the swap to pay for the BTC-transaction fees. The user cannot pay these BTC-fees, these have to be paid from the swap through some kind of fund.

Everything regarding to depositing MAID.omni

How do we know who is sending and who to issue?
What if we create a new deposit address for every user? This would make it very easy to associate who is depositing to their deposit address and then issue tokens to their provided ETH address.

Issue is withdrawing, random user wants to burn 10K MAID.erc20 but the MAID.omni is only available on 3 different addresses:
e.g. A1 3000 MAID.omni, A2 6000 MAID.omni and A3 2500 MAID.omni

Now this would require a transaction that takes 3 inputs, for each input you need to pay additional BTC-fee to move it out of the address. A1 and A2 will be empty, but A3 will have 500 remaining. All that small dust might become so small that fee-wise it is not ideal to do it this way.

What about one single deposit address?
Everybody who wants to mint erc20 would then only require to send to one single address. How do we know someone deposited and seperate Bob’s deposit from John who are performing it at the same time?
For that we would require the nodes to check from what address it comes,

For example:
Bob: 1Q36tTN11yG3JghFXW5iwDMNC2b1uwBFTz
John: 1CUzFDY9FckFdZ6Wb2KEn2JCUvGVQRX4Jv
Master Deposit Address: 1CuRFmAHoWQ3i9yok5LriwKu9ecRv62rd5

Bob sends an arbitrary amount and John as well to 1CuRFmAHoWQ3i9yok5LriwKu9ecRv62rd5 the deposit address.

Before Bob makes any transaction he has to provide an ETH address that will be used by the nodes to mint the erc20 to once they confirm independently that funds have been receive from 1Q36tTN11yG3JghFXW5iwDMNC2b1uwBFTz his address.

Same John has to provide an ETH address and his BTC address where the MAID will be coming from.

Once any new funds are received the nodes will check the address who send it and then check to which address this correlates and sign the minting transaction, when that reaches the required consensus e.g. (66% or more) it will mint the tokens in the next block to either bob or john who succeeded to send the funds.

What I’m still figuring out is where and how this minting fee can easily be paid. We could have a ETH deposit contract that keeps track how much ETH individual users deposit and then gives interest based on the % of total ETH they deposited. It should also allow the users to withdraw their own ETH (they receive their total holding - transaction fee in gas). Only the MAID.erc20 contract would be able to pay from this common ETH fund and would require the multi-signatures so no single person, not even the contract creator would be able to withdraw anything inside of the contract at anytime.

Everything regarding to burning MAID.erc20

Burning requires gas in ETH, a user could burn his own MAID.erc20 and pay for this fee himself. Or he allows the contract to burnFrom his address for his specified amount (called allowance).

  1. He burns it himself, first before doing this the swap always needs to be aware of actions before they are done. Bob tells the swap he wants to burn some of his MAID.erc20 from his ETH addres, then the nodes will verify that it’s actually done and proceed to move MAID.omni from the master deposit address using all signatures to Bob’s private BTC address that he controls.
  2. The swap burns it for Bob, Bob signs the transaction (requires no gas) to increase the allowance that the contract can burnFrom his address. Normally the allowence = amount_to_burn and after this is performed and verified by all nodes it will proceed to withdraw the MAID.omni to Bob’s provided BTC address usign the signature every node has to provide to withdraw from the multi-signature address.

In both cases the withdrawl from the multi-signature BTC address requires the swap to pay for the withdrawl fees. This can only be done with the BTC residing on the same address as all the locked MAID.omni is residing. I tried to withdraw some MAID once from Omniwallet with enough BTC in the wallet but since it was not specifically on the MAID.omni address I first had to transfer it to the same address.

We need one single multi-signature BTC-address that holds both MAID.omni as the BTC funds for transactions. The more tricky part lays in the fact that Bitcoin doesn’t have smart contracts like ETH does. The ETH fund can easily track how much ETH every person deposited into it, but the BTC required for the withdrawal transactions which is deposited by numerous people who want to receive interest is more difficult to manage.

Maybe that the ETH fund can both track how much ETH and BTC each person has deposited to receive interest on in MAID. Since every node already has a full omnicore (runs on top of bitcoin) those nodes can also independently confirm that person X deposited BTC and increase their total deposited value on the Fund smart contract.

What a lot of text and thinking, it’s big brainstorm and I believe that together (especially with the more technical knowledgeable people) we can find a good solution to this problem of securely and in a decentralized manner connect MAID.omni to the Ethereum Network and vice versa.

Last resort option which could simplify things A LOT, is by having the MaidSafe Team create a smart contract (or we as community write it and review it and then propose them to conduct the final step) and then do a one-way burn of MAID.omni.

No swapping back and forward between Omni and ETH, saves a lot of hussle and fees. This solution would burn the MAID.omni received indefinitely and mint an equal amount of ERC20 for the depositor. This would require MaidSafe to acknowledge all minted ERC20 as eligible for SafeNetwork tokens as the burned tokens will never be able to move anymore and be out of circulation.

Although this might sound great, I believe it would be an all or nothing event, because if all MAID is now traded on Ethereum DEX’s then what will be left the normal MAID.omni given there will be less interest as the ERC20 issued token becomes available. Note that they still would have equal amount of right to receive SafeNetwork Tokens once the network is live.

If anyone has any other good alternative options please feel free to share your ideas and/or opinions.

And also what do you think of alternative to Ethereum due to the high gas prices. Thoughts on Binance Smart Chain?

–DeusNexus

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Binance smart chain in somewhat centralised, prob best to use a native eth layer 2 scaling solution i.e. we could issue maid on xdai instead (or in addition to) erc20 and the omnibridge would allow users to convert erc20-maid <> xdai-maid easily.

https://app.honeyswap.org/#/swap

There’s also loopring: https://exchange.loopring.io/swap

Both solutions cons are that you need to fund/bridge across assets off ethereum mainnet, but once thats done you can swap with super low fees on the networks.

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Hey guys, you could use tezos. They are building multiple dexies and eth bridges.

contact@tezos.foundation

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Leonardo da Vinci designed the flying machine in the 15th century. But it wasn’t realized until the 20th century because the design needed modern combustion engines, material sciences and production capabilities. Innovation processes takes time; it is messy; iterative and is dependent on other innovations and developments; and so on.

People tend to conceptualize innovation process as a linear process going from research →
development → production → marketing (Kline & Rosenberg, 1986). But that’s not how it goes. But the effect is that we perceive the process as going slow, perhaps?

I just thought the perspective might be useful - I reacted to the point of view of the $10B company founder who thought SN a side project…

.

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This!

Then again, I think David himself should just ignore many of the attacks/demands.

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A post was merged into an existing topic: New Feature - Slow mode

I know what you mean. A few people asked me about what else is big in the space for similar reasons (I bored them with Bitcoin and Docker back in the day! ha!). I tell them about MAID. I tell them it isn’t a hype coin and there are many risks, but it is truly novel and game changing it if works.

In fact, just yesterday a friend of mine was asking about it again. We chat frequently about what to invest in (not just crypto, but stocks/funds, etc) and I think he is looking to dip a toe in the water, after not really getting into the crypto space before. Given he is also a developer, I suggested he read the primer to appreciate just what the technology is trying to deliver, then make his own judgement.

I’m just waiting for the right time to start really pushing the message home to my dev friends. They would be interested in using Safe Network and writing code/apps for it too, once they feel it is close enough to be usable. Then I can stop providing a long list of caveats at the same time too! :sweat_smile:

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Just to explain a bit. The 4 minutes wait time means you cannot post within 4 minutes of your previous post. Or at least that is what it is supposed to do.

The idea is to slow down people firing fast a number of replies. So for instance two people arguing will have to wait 4 minutes before they can post again. The developers of the forum software think this is a good idea to get people to think more before posting in very fast moving topics.

It is set to expire in 10 hours and I will let it go for this time period and people can express their view/opinions/criticisms in the New Feature - Slow mode topic. Please comment if you have a view, feed back is key to help us know when or if we ever use it.

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I like a throttle like that. Perhaps a poll?

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In that topic we may very well do a poll depending on the comments we get from the community. @dirvine , Good idea.

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Some more info about RenVM describing their path to decentralization (from Aug2020):

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Many times rapid responses occur not because of arguing but because good ideas are being presented and responded to quickly. The four-minute wait might tend to put a drag on free flow of ideas. Lord knows I am aware of the arguing point but I think this solution might do more harm than good. Imagine being forced to hold your tongue for four minutes when having a real, live person-to-person discussion with someone.

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I think that would be another interesting experiment.

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I agree Wrapped looks promising. In weighing the relative merits of the Wrapped route vs what DeusNexus has been working on, I think it comes down to two primary factors: security and speed.

With regards to security, Wrapped seems to have the advantage since they have a track record for pulling this sort of operation off and use recognized custodians.

With regards to speed, Wrapped also seems to have the advantage because they’ve done this before and could more accurately estimate time to market.

@DeusNexus, do you have a sense of how much time it would take to launch the MaidSwap?

Based on the update DeusNexus shared, it appears there are still significant challenges for him to sort through. As such, I think it would be a good idea to reach out to the Wrapped team to get more information on what the process, fees and timing would be. @dirvine is this something Sharon could do? I’m happy to draft up an email she could use or contact Wrapped directly.

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