MaidSafe without deadline or performance milestone?

Too fast is certainly not good (notice that they are miners…)


Twelve years out Maidsafe still really has no close competition. IMO, if they were really going too slow there would be serious competition. The complexity of the problem is why there is no competition. You can’t put a timeline on overcoming complexity as there is no guide for it.

So far all I’ve seen being developed is in-line with the original plan from the crowdsale. If they were adding on a jacuzzi, I’d be first in-que to complain.

And, so long as they are making weekly progress, which they are, I see no reason to complain - this is simply how long it takes to build out this dream and I for one am very pleased that David hasn’t gone the easy route by simply reducing his (and our collective) expectations for the project.

Thanks for continuing forward through it all @dirvine , it is very appreciated by most here I am certain.

edit: I would also add that not having a timeline/deadline isn’t a luxury either - it’s not ‘bad’ in terms of a project like this, but it’s certainly not a luxury - more of a necessity and in a way I’m sure it causes a stress unto itself - we’d all, including the team, like to know WHEN, and I’m certain that when that WHEN becomes clear it will be published far and wide.


Double “like”, @TylerAbeoJordan!


DIrvine - pls take your time. I know the team is working hard. Pls continue to working on and delivering a quality/workable/presentable/usable product. Dont worry about comments on this forum. For every, not so positive comment, there are 1000’s good ones too. This product will change everything - the way we know it. This change will positively enrich us everyday, and perhaps generations. Lets all read the news about Facebook today - 50 million records stolen.

I know timelines can be unpredictable. Thats fine. Lets all just aim to deliver as quickly as possible but do not compromise quality.



I have nothing but respect for everyone involved in freeing the world through MaidSafe. I wish @BIGbtc was more respectful about his points because it left a very disrespectful tone on an argument that actually does make a bit of logical sense and has always been in the back on my mind

We all have our post-SAFE plans, projects and dreams. I personally need SAFE to exist, in some real form, to ultimately be content with my life and see the world go in the right direction. Every part of my day reminds me of this, even the times when I’m less active on here.

But the lack of enforcement options available from any outside parties in terms of deliveries or open initiatives does put a damper on this movement, in my eyes.

In my (albeit limited) life experience, open source projects seem to start with a somewhat imperfect version that has all the core features, and has somewhat readable code, and then everyone openly improves it from there. I wish we had a full–but imperfect–version of SAFE to play with, with “real” safecoins, TEST-17-style vaults from home, and the other core features, while MaidSafe continues to perfect their perfect version over the next additional years past today in 2018. (This network’s coins by no means need to be exchangeable for MAID yet, but might develop a sort of limited value on their own)

Our different friends and developers in Asia have been somewhat brainstorming a network like this, to give real community pressure towards real versions of SAFE. Perfection is impossible btw and I never saw any reason that after all the development progress and releases over all these years, we can’t at least have a demo version that’s totally open and being maintained by outside parties and the community. Something like that would really kickstart those feelings of true excitement and freedom that MaidSafe originally inspired in all our hearts

Just thoughts.

If it doesn’t happen, look for it from outside parties later on :+1: we will do our best.


Following up with this :point_up_2:,

Let’s look at all that’s required for this to exist, and discuss if the required code exists yet:

  • home vaults :ballot_box_with_check: (yes, TEST 17 code)
  • browser :ballot_box_with_check: (yes, for years already)
  • routing / client_libs etc (:ballot_box_with_check: all yes)
  • APIs to build apps / sites (:ballot_box_with_check: all yes)
  • safecoin / wallets code (yes, somewhat partially MaidSafe code, partially @bochaco & others’ code)
  • mining, to complete the system & close the loop to make the network function (don’t think so? :thinking:)

In 30 or 40 years time, I would think we would have systems that we can’t imagine today. After all, the current internet is dated after 25 years. Qantum computers will be the norm along with autonomous coding. Think it and it will be

While I do agree with you, let’s not forget there are cultural differences and not focus so much on perceived “tone”, but on what is actually being said - as well as possible and often in a language that is not native to the writer. I myself am a woodsman from the far North and expressing myself like an English gentleman doesn’t come naturally. I’m in no way comparing myself to Linus Torvalds but we were actually school mates and he certainly is known for sometimes expressing himself in a harsh way - a fact he is also aware of.


Everyone is free to help as they wants. @BIGbtc helped my efforts, for which I am very grateful to him!


Just imagine how long it would have taken without Parsec. Another few years to Alpha 3 without it


Remember what Facebook was when it was first released compared to what it is today. A basic beta is all Safe needs

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Exactly :+1:

First version is just the first step


Have to agree that its hard to predict and calculate new obsticles ahead. One thing that does make a big difference in delivering in a reasonable time is that we dont have any other devs (or contributors) working on the project on weekends, all biggest project out there are beeing worked on 7 days a week all the time, unfortunately 2 days of pause in work each week on tasks that are so time consuming and complicated is alot , I know its hard to find contributors who could help with routing etc. in their spare time , thats a pitty , because this 2 day pause shows there is room for improvement in this delivery area

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You have no idea what that term means in reference to this project no one does. By definition almost all of your logic that follows falls short by way of a stackload of assumptive assertions or just plain old inexperience :roll_eyes:

I’d argue that @anon94252342 has a valid concern,

Sometimes I see how this network was originally described and marketed as a competitive, aggressively-scheduled, fast timetable towards a profitable system, open community and team built network, but over the years it seems to have developed into more of a more academic / university research type of timeline and project (usually measured in half or full decades), which was not the original case. If it really needs that type of schedule it just should have been made clear, that’s all.

Do you remember some of the language used at the beginning?

Also, I don’t think anyone would argue against his point of having multiple parties working on an open source project. More should be done to reach this level.


I very much doubt the devs suddenly turn off their brains come weekend. This is not Chaplin working at an assembly line - when the machine stops, he stops.


Yeah Will I do, it’s not something I ever could really try and pin these guys down for though given the way the last 4 years have unfolded.

The project itself has grown arms and legs extensively and I don’t think anyone could have foreseen that. The constant evolution (or walking through the mud) hasn’t been anything other than the best move for the Network itself (the re-write, disjoint sections yada yada yada). The original vision itself hasn’t changed though not for a minute which is all I can ask for on my lowly pleb end.

Agree 100% with your comment about welcoming the additional hands on deck but it isn’t expediting this any faster now. Knock Parsec down and then hammer home the farming algorithm and we’re sitting front row and centre on probably one of if not the most important software projects of the last 2 decades.

I’m not seeing the benefit in hammering these guys (not you personally) with indirect snipes about deficiencies with the overall process (often repetitively) given the path that has had to be trodden by many internally to get to this point. For heavens sake DI works 16+hr days(as others do) and I would happily bet a bunch of staff in that company are working for peanuts relative to their skill sets.

A complete lack of a broader view when it comes to balancing the needs of developing something like SAFE, running a Company itself and trying onboard and maintain personable ties with a digital community seems to rear its head a bit around this place.

IMO the absence of these considerations stick out in a few posts like the one above hence they get met with annoyed responses sometimes.

Not saying that’s right, just explaining how I think (and so Starsmick doesn’t think it’s personal).


@whiteoutmashups your list of ticks tries to make a point you would like to be true but it is wrong. Just take one: ‘vaults at home’:

Yup, we had them. But they were not successful. So no tick.

They weren’t just ‘not perfect’ they could not survive the most basic attack because the protection mechanisms were not even started then.

The only reason they could work was because everyone was behaving nicely, and as soon as a spammer arrived, poof. We no longer had vaults at home.

So you can uncheck that one. And it won’t be checked until after alpha 4 has competed successfully.

By all means show Maidsafe how to do that more quickly than they are, and then check it off your list.


I’d argue that my list is correct for its purpose,

The hole you’re describing is the bottom (lack of a) tick, which is the farming, which fixes this attack vector.

Also, it has always been described as a “very easy” thing to hash out in code.

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Oh I wish :wink: