MaidSafe without deadline or performance milestone?

I very much doubt the devs suddenly turn off their brains come weekend. This is not Chaplin working at an assembly line - when the machine stops, he stops.

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Yeah Will I do, it’s not something I ever could really try and pin these guys down for though given the way the last 4 years have unfolded.

The project itself has grown arms and legs extensively and I don’t think anyone could have foreseen that. The constant evolution (or walking through the mud) hasn’t been anything other than the best move for the Network itself (the re-write, disjoint sections yada yada yada). The original vision itself hasn’t changed though not for a minute which is all I can ask for on my lowly pleb end.

Agree 100% with your comment about welcoming the additional hands on deck but it isn’t expediting this any faster now. Knock Parsec down and then hammer home the farming algorithm and we’re sitting front row and centre on probably one of if not the most important software projects of the last 2 decades.

I’m not seeing the benefit in hammering these guys (not you personally) with indirect snipes about deficiencies with the overall process (often repetitively) given the path that has had to be trodden by many internally to get to this point. For heavens sake DI works 16+hr days(as others do) and I would happily bet a bunch of staff in that company are working for peanuts relative to their skill sets.

A complete lack of a broader view when it comes to balancing the needs of developing something like SAFE, running a Company itself and trying onboard and maintain personable ties with a digital community seems to rear its head a bit around this place.

IMO the absence of these considerations stick out in a few posts like the one above hence they get met with annoyed responses sometimes.

Not saying that’s right, just explaining how I think (and so Starsmick doesn’t think it’s personal).

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@whiteoutmashups your list of ticks tries to make a point you would like to be true but it is wrong. Just take one: ‘vaults at home’:

Yup, we had them. But they were not successful. So no tick.

They weren’t just ‘not perfect’ they could not survive the most basic attack because the protection mechanisms were not even started then.

The only reason they could work was because everyone was behaving nicely, and as soon as a spammer arrived, poof. We no longer had vaults at home.

So you can uncheck that one. And it won’t be checked until after alpha 4 has competed successfully.

By all means show Maidsafe how to do that more quickly than they are, and then check it off your list.

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I’d argue that my list is correct for its purpose,

The hole you’re describing is the bottom (lack of a) tick, which is the farming, which fixes this attack vector.

Also, it has always been described as a “very easy” thing to hash out in code.

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Oh I wish :wink:

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It was way more than that, no data chains, no parsec, no secure message relay, not fully encrypted comms, no udp hole punching (it was upnp and direct), no bootstrap cache etc. etc . Much of that will be alpha3 and all the alpha3 work is putting these things in place to secure a routing network.

With vaults on top then farming does add to the security and is an empirical part, however without a secure routing underneath the safecoin security vanishes to zero.

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The ‘easy’ bit you refer to was recently being discussed, and has already been paused to await the outcome of the hard bit, which you haven’t mentioned.

Also, these things are laid out as a list to make it easier to talk about them, not because that’s the way things are.

They are interdependent, and to present them the way you have to make a point which depends on them being independent is therefore misleading, trying to prove something you want to be true, but which isn’t, and in so doing unfairly portraying Maidsafe as not knowing what they are doing.

I’m afraid it’s you that doesn’t appreciate what those items are or what needs to be done to fit all those pieces together into a functioning network.

Every time someone says something like ‘it doesn’t need to be perfect, just get a basic network out there and build on that’, they show this lack of understanding, and mislead others into the same mistake.

So I’m sorry to be blunt, but I think it needs to be said, especially when valued community members who have been around so long say things which promote that misunderstanding, and by implication criticise Maidsafe on a false premise.

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Agreed. A network that isn’t safe won’t be SAFE.

No matter how loud the kids yell “Are we there yet?” when going on a (fun) family vacation, it doesn’t make the car reach the destination faster. However, it does annoy the driver/navigator and distracts them from keeping their eyes on the road. I usually tell my kids that if they are quiet and take a nap, then the car will be able to engage the hyperdrive and move so fast we will be at grandma’s house when they wake up. Otherwise, they need to sit back, relax and enjoy the journey. (Which includes lot’s of fun discussion, songs, arguments, debates, snacks, and vacation planning :slight_smile: )

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Thanks @dirvine and @happybeing for giving additional context here. Looks like I didn’t fully appreciate everything that goes into it.

And you’re right @happybeing it’s not what I wanted to be true :frowning:

Was extremely careful not to criticise anyone, & just strongly wished to see things take a different turn if it would be possible.

But I still might continue to support the efforts to make such a network at some point though, because it would be extremely exciting, despite being unsecure or reliable for SafeCoin. I also think that doing so is very in line with the original vision and direction of the project.

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There nothing wrong with you or anybody putting together a network like that, it just isn’t what Maidsafe are building, won’t be S. A. F. E. and so will be of limited use (and won’t help get SAFE Network faster).

Thanks for the apology. I’m impatient too, but lucky not to be as affected by the long timescales as some, including yourself probably. Take care Will :slight_smile:

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“It turns out that first-mover advantage is mostly a myth…”

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I have gotten impatient at times, but primarily because I kept having expectations of each and every year “definitely” being the time for release, based on, well, me, and probably everyone in the community, not being used to dealing with a project like this. As the years have now reached much more of the peak of development/release, especially for those following every step of the way: you can now look back with a historical and personal perspective as to why you were wrong about your expectations. Now that more RFCs etc. have been idealized and completed for the realization of the entire system, && based on said history of time taken to complete, you can extrapolate that it’ll be more like 2020—rather than “omg it’s definitely going to be completed this year, this month, or even tomorrow!”—before a significant number of public test nets are completed to ensure maximum working as planned for the whole system. So basically if you don’t know or don’t have experience in why time has taken as it has, well, idk what to say… just know that every month something happens, but there are many somethings to happen still. Month by month indicators are an extremely good detail to pay attention to, rather than week to week. Network completion might happen next year; but just know that public tests are unknown territory, which is, well, unknown, and based on my post you know that unknowns lead to shaky expectations.

And then during/after 2020 you have public awareness and whatever else, which ideally should be extremely fast, like, say, a torrent! But you never know… but, in this case, it’s almost like you should just know that this thing will be more wild than a wildfire…! 'Suppose I overlooked app development though, which takes time, too, so that the wildfire will have more appeal… more APPeal… .
Now I’m just rambling.

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This I agree with basically. That’s many times what you hear from people who have no idea what is technically required for a feat to work as expected.

However, I personally think it is much more complicated than that. Sometimes there’s no perfect way or answer, and I consider this to be such a case:

Ideally, you have all the time needed to make it “perfect” (in the reasonable sense of the word, i.e. things work the way we want).
But at the same time, there are so many things showing up when running things in production, that you simply won’t cover with that path, and it changes your notion of what the feat should do. Finding these things before release would make you go about it differently.

And there’s really no good way to have both or just one. You’re damned either way :joy:

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I looked everywhere for the ass that said that and found not a trace so it’s clearly a manipulation of words to suit your cause. Your manufactured quote serves only you and is a disservice to your team. I did find a reference to no timelines or performance milestones being a pretty good gig. This is exactly the model you operate under and no amount of your BS can change the fact that business model is (edit) extremely desirable but unsustainable.

That’s my point. Nowhere is there a reference to speeding up production. Nowhere is there reference to expecting a completion date. Nowhere have I suggested the challenges that you and your team face are easy. Nowhere have I suggested you will not succeed.

Just another entertaining and masterful spin…The picture becomes more clear each time you attack the messenger. (Edit) Just to clarify this statement. "Your story for the last 12 years has been repeated millions of times by millions of people. "The point I was trying to make was that millions of people have started companies, mllions of times, and in the same way you have, endless hours, days,… etc

Have a little respect.

I’m happy with the vibrant outcome and my contribution.

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So

Then

plus

and

with some topping

Leads to

How quaint :wink:

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How mature. How telling.

I see you are ignoring the point(s). You cannot insult somebody with 75% of your message and ask for respect, I am big enough to handle your insults and that is fine, but others may not and I hope you hear that message loud and clear. It really is time you did.

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Ditto. I expect you understand my point. It was clear. Particularly the part about manipulating my comment to push your narrative.

I’m just fine thanks. I don’t need coaching.

Particularly the part about directly quoting me

There fixed that for you and it’s much better than your claim of

Or would you prefer not to be directly quoted? I am a bit lost as to your demands here.

Oh don’t get me wrong, I was not offering.

Hilarious. Keep typing. Keep up this charade. It’s not really that important for me. I know you are probably caught up on everything. What else?