MaidSafe without deadline or performance milestone?

That’s actually pretty funny. But you’ve already been reamed so I’ll be gentle. The fact of the matter is there are problems with the way things are delivered and some of these are unexpected. 15 minutes is really nothing but in reality if it’s supposed to take 5 seconds, it’s waaaay too long. As far as the comments defending Maidsafe 12 years of development, they have had a paycheck and the luxury of no deadline or performance milestone … That’s a pretty good gig.


I really don’t see what the fuss about the 12 years is all about. That’s like criticizing humanity because it took it thousands of years to come up with the railroad.

Now, if Ötzi gave some of his squirrel skins to the local shaman working on developing a writing system in order to help progress along, that was very nicely done, and I’m sure it eventually did contribute to the railroad. But for Ötzi to be jumping up and down asking the shaman to hurry up with the railroad so he could make some profit would have been silly. Especially if Ötzi was a salesman type and demanded the railroad be marketed at the yearly Storting to make sure the flying machine inventors didn’t get there first.


:smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: That I will record for a while as the most misguided insult to date (they are more frequent than ever from you now). It did make me laugh so thanks for that. Really really good :smiley: :smiley:

Man, that is a topper. Life is a breeze we have had no worries and marched through the wild meadows with the sun in our face watching the lambs bouncing around the trees and money just fell from the sky from people who never asked us for anything in return and left us alone. … fantastic. Maybe we also managed to get paid most months in this dream, perhaps.

Since our crowdsale life has been financially much easier, not so much in the first year or two, but definitely bearable and way less stressful, but in the early years we just went through hell with funding and trying to pay wages for just a couple of staff. If you had lived through that I very much doubt you would call it easy (or a “pretty good gig”).


This is what happens after praising him for being critical. His ego was stroked and he now seeks more by displaying purity in his practice. Deeming his previous behavior as healthy created an unbalanced monster. :weary: He now believes that this is as an essential contribution to this project. Quite childish really. Like a kid that continues to behave humorously after he illicits the first laugh. Desperately seeking the same high and using little discrection as he attempts to extract further favorable responses. Time for an outburst… 3.2.1. :grimacing:


Spin it into what you will. I’m not surprised you made this into a villian/ victim. What I said was not an insult, it was an observation. An accurate observation. Not framed to be disrespectful at all. But really, don’t you think there are bigger fish to fry? And should this distract from your important tasks? I’ll also mark this as one of the many times your being thin skinned was not beneficial to Maidsafe.

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In my viewpoint, I’ll be happy if MaidSafe took 30-40 years to set this up. In reality, their doing something that will change the way the web works in a overall around better way of how things work & how they should’ve worked from the get go. It’s not just a job here, it’s setting the foot down on changing the future. It’s gonna take a while & it’s not something that should be treated as another job or gig.

That’s like saying the scientist that are finding a cure for cancer is just another gig, a job that they have. I hope that you can see this because in my eyes, it truly is comparable to them doctors with their work. Even though their not doing the same thing exactly, they are doing the same work on a major level just in a different way towards humanity.

I’m gonna leave it at this, good luck with your life! Even with Cash being King in your eyes, your gonna need it!


Quality matters, not time… cough off topic → trash cough


Thanks @JPL for moving the topic. It does need its own so I changed the title to reflect this pertinent subject.

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It has probably been more like endless days (and evenings, and sometimes nights) in front of a screen, bad for eyes, bad for posture, rarely seeing blue sky or breathing outside air.
Thinking so hard about code, solving problems, that your brain boils when going to bed.
Not seeing friends, not seeing family, skipping holidays.

My work is like that, programming like mad, and it is not healthy. So, I can imagine that you’ve been sacrificing in a very similar way, because that’s often how it goes down.

This was my doing actually.

But I still think many of his points are valid, mostly based on my own experience.
For many years now, I have been developing a system which the managers have been constantly shitting their pants in nervous breakdowns about, since it has not been possible to give accurate estimate of time to done. And when pressured hard enough even under protests and fat caveats about the unreasonable expectation on being able to predict such things, and finally giving some number, which of course was wrong, even more hell broke loose.

I have felt a strong sympathy for the MaidSafe team when following their history, since I recognised (imagined or not) so much of it from my own experiences.

Still though, I also, after some resistance, recognised that there were scope creeps in the work I did, and that there were unfortunate choices and decisions that led to the estimates being harder, and things delaying more.

Now of course this could all be just my weaknesses and there might be no real correlation to the MaidSafe project, but from my point of view, when critically looking at myself I do find many of @BigBtc’s points perfectly valid.


I do too, but the delivery is terrible at times and even verge on disgusting. That prevents rational critique and debate and I have tried to state that, but I am afraid there is an issue there that prevents rational dialogue.

Exactly, but it requires context, I keep telling my family and what friends I have contact with that what we are doing is important and yes hard. However, it’s not on pat with the folks who gave their whole life in years gone by in wars, mines and terrible jobs with short life expectancy. I expect many to ignore the tough nature of it and I am OK with that, it’s not their choice I do this, its mine. However when some ass states we are living on a cloud with no worries hassles and in some kind of cotton covered comfort, then I will try and put that record straight. I don’t think it is thin-skinned, but just as I gave away shares to help others, I feel obliged to stamp out that nonsense as that is what makes it hard for others to follow an innovative route. Innovators should not have to be hard as hell, always-on and superhuman, they should be encouraged to just innovate and I hope to help that along the way.

So critique is great, the debate can be wonderful, look at the deep thinking threads on this forum, they are full of amazing stuff. However the quick snipe, jibe, and lecture, where there is little deep thinking, but a cry to be listened to can be quite counter-productive and pandering to it can probably make those people actually worse. Those shallow thinkers also tend to not be involved in much or any of the deep thinking or introspection of ideas that happens when we look at facts, so they stick to the area where a standard accusation that can be thrown at almost any project or company is just regurgitated here. Things like Tesla marketing is rubbish, oh so is Microsoft, Google, Facebook, … etc. Then the split from the community is attempted, buy referring to the company (maidsafe) as them. i.e. They know nada about X, they are rubbish about Y etc. (where X and Y must be not quantifiable though :wink: )That is amazing as we work very hard to keep the whole thing homogonous and the community and company as close as possible. So the weak minded will always do these tricks, but I do not wish others to think that is normal or acceptable. I much prefer possible future innovators to be able to say, oh yea some folk does that weird stuff, it’s OK though, I have seen examples and how much it does not matter.

Seriously though, it is hard, it is tough, but it is what we choose to do and therefore it is the best thing we can be doing as well, regardless of personal cost.


I’ll second that a lot of it has to do with delivery not to mention the choice of words. As much as we all look up to Spock and his profound critical thinking and logic, it’s also so far from human empathy that it comes off as an insult. Just learn how to communicate like a normal ass person so people are more receptive to your point. :roll_eyes:


If I read @BigBTC right he is being provocative to start a discussion and break up a perceived cosy consensus, which is fine. Certainly I can’t see him joining the diplomatic corps any time soon, but there’s a place for blunt speech, and I often respect his opinion on things. However he has picked the wrong target on this occasion. I’m sure everyone would like the network to be ready tomorrow but that’s not the way it works, and I can’t believe he really thinks the team have been swanning about up in Ayr sitting in metaphorical hot tubs and sipping metaphorical Pina Coladas on investors’ money. Really, there’s a fine line between calling a spade a spade and being a rude c***.

And while I’m on a roll, how about contributing something more than snark @BigBTC? I remember asking you if you’d contribute to shaping the primer but you turned it down. You obviously know a fair bit about marketing and you can certainly string a sentence together so why not contribute? That’s what open source projects are all about.


Maidsafe do sort of provide a ‘performance milestone’, as they have all their tasks on jira which is publicly available.

You can even add some filters to pick up blocker, critical and major tasks. At this moment they have 17 of these.

All maidsafe would need to do its move these under an alpha 3 milestone, giving a more clear message what’s required at a task level to complete alpha 3.


The problem here is these are dev “guesses” at complexity (not necessarily time). Some may be fast or slower than presumed, also some may be dropped and others added. The nightmare of being held to the jira tasks like that would be profound. Added to that, there is a ton of background work that happens, hopefully, to speed up the launch, but not guaranteed.

So Jira is more accurate the closer the target, but further out stuff, like routing integration for example (milestone 3) will not be there as we have some options.

It’s a nice idea but would just cause mayhem.


I wasn’t suggest for it to be used for timelines, but if everything was labeled with alpha 3, as you worked towards alpha 3, it would be much easier to see the amount of tasks (work) that has already been completed. Right now the closed stuff has little meaning other than the date it was closed on.

I think it would just be a nice way to show look how much stuff the team has actually had to do to move from alpha 2 to alpha 3. ( might stop people thinking your spending your life in a hot tub). Just a thought.

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I know and appreciate that, but I can almost be certain, folk will and crucify us with it :wink:

Yes, it won’t though as not all tasks are there, in fact in milstone 2 we added 4 more tasks this week that we never expected. There is almost none for milestone 3 for alpha 3. Jira is great for folk to see the current workload for most of the devs, but it is not so good for larger picture stuff. We are trying out some charting to make that even more clear, but even then if you zoom out slightly it will not give you the info to alpha3, well until we are almost there, but that tends to be large scale testing and tweaking etc.

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milestone 2 and milestone 3 are your internal task separation points. As an outsider I would just like to click on a filter in jira and see everything thats happened between alpha 2 release and alpha 3 release, and what’s still open for alpha 3. The resolution date kinda works for this. I’m not sure how folk can crucify you on work completed, and next tasks to be done. Well unless you stop working of course (I’m watching you :eyes:).

At some point you’ll start adding work for alpha 4 on components that are alpha 3 ready, as other teams finish off their alpha 3 work. Then my filter is less useful, but with very little effort on maidsafe’s part you can make this much easier to view.

I agree, but that is not a problem. We add/drop and alter tasks. We don’t internally have targets like apha3 being a single tub of stuff (in Jira). So we break this down to smaller chunks and discuss those at length, get design complete (not in Jira) then put those tasks for that blob in jira. So it’s not aligned with a public timeline in a way I think you are perceiving.

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I know it’s not a full timeline, and I know it’s not a complete view of everything that happens. To tag the tasks a part of a ‘tub of stuff’ (aka a public release) is an easy way to show progression. It won’t ever be an indication of when its finished as you can continuously add new tasks. And yes, when you start tagging stuff for alpha 4, people will start to get excited, and thats okay, but it’s still not a deadline for alpha 3.

I find all the insults and ridicule that were thrown at the team has something in common: everyone wants safenetwork to be delivered as soon as possible. So the fundamental remains the same, this project is important. Kipidup maidsafe team.