Is the community getting tired of maidsafe

I have gotten realization that this project is another 1-2 years away, listening to the latest PR from safe cross roads there is going to be another 7alpha releases with at least 5-10 tests in each. each alpha having month or two before each upgrade of alpha. By the end of all this If safe network has a chance depends on the governments in how hard they will hit privacy and censorship.

I think safe network wants to achieve too much with decentralization.

I think at least if safe network had test network running all the time even if it was not fully function able it would be something. The world does not have another 5 years.

I can not see why safe coin only network with some basic features can not be made and working. At least this would be something. some messaging and file sharing app would be cool.

I must admit I have looked into other projects now but still hope one day safe network would be open for business…

Why don’t you just search this single thread, read all I have said previously and then explain the point you are making?
I have been here from the start and know the history and have more battle scars than most on here, fighting for the basic values I invested in to be implemented here.
I have no personal complaint regarding time frames, however have made the point that those complaining have a legitimate grievance which should be acknowledged and faced, rather than side-stepped. I don’t believe this kind of thing does the project any favours - it casts us in a bad light, which is the same nature as my other long running concern.
We can show integrity and walk the talk, hold our hands up and apologise when we get things wrong, or we can form a defensive mob and use mealy-mouthed arguments. I know what I think casts the project and community in a better light.
Anyone visiting here or wanting to troll this project elsewhere is being given ammunition:
“Oh they don’t walk the talk”
“Its a bloody cult”
“They just gloss over things” etc…This is the nature of my concern.

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This imo ends the conversation.

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Are you kidding 7 Alpha stages ? wasnt it beta after Alpha2.

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Dunno where you would have got that. Somewhere they were clearly saying test15 may become alpha2 and alpha 3 comes after that with more features.

Test 15 will now be followed with test 16 now which should become alpha 2

Sorry can’t find the exact post

My recollection is beta after Alpha 3, but Rob and I have different interpretations of what beta represents :slight_smile:

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Yeah, I was under the impression is was test15 into alpha 2 which is supposed to keep running, then progressing to alpha 3 with an unknown number of possible testnets between there and beta? It’s alpha 3 that I’m really excited about anyway, not beta.

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This is one thing I have no knowledge of. So in this I cannot disagree. It was someone else who said 7 alphas.

In the past (projects I know of or been involved with) betas usually have little feature additions to core code. So in my understanding the core code would have to be fairly complete. testSafecoin though is not strictly needed for the core code so it could very well be in beta 1.

My disagreement is simply that I consider it reasonable that the netywork data MAY (possibly) have to be reset and cannot give any confidence to anyone that data may persist from “beta 1” to “release candidate 1” and I also use what David said as being of a similar view. He said that one of the release candidates will never have its data reset in later releases. (and this means testsafecoin become safecoin)

Found the update from the horse’s mouth (thanks @frabrunelle for showing me)

Remember this is not set in stone but best expectation.

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He said it in hes post that Nick said it, so wondered if it was true thats why i asked.

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The point is that nobody knows. We all can see the iterations of testnets and releases though so we can all guess. Nobody from maidsafe knows which testnet/release will be “the one”. This is why we iterate through features and do so trying to release what we can to the community.

So guessing is hard especially at bits that have never been done. This points to routing and vaults with data republish and some security parts (node age etc.). These are happening in parallel and will take center stage in routing/vaults in the next weeks. We will see how that pans out.

Then we have safecoin, much less of a never been done as it’s a data type of the billions of data types that the above allows, so pretty simple, however it’s a network created type so there is a little more work there to ensure that the network can balance the resource / requirements. Not a huge deal though, it’s a pretty easy algorithm.

Then we have client parts, the part you actually see and use to create apps. That is happening in the open, as the new API is released (in some testenets and releases after alpha 2) we can clearly see progress there and also apps. This allows less tech people to see progress as “stuff they can use”.

So this IMHO is the three parts we need to look at. We all use a binary done/not done but it is way more subtle. Is the network done when we have test safecoin, real safecoin, data republish, secured data republish? Some will say Ok then I want everything and it will be done, however that does not work either, there will always be improvements and additions so everything never happens. (think compute etc. is that also required to be done?)

Even if we agree that X is “done” then apps are built, when will normal users consider they will consider this “done” and create accounts? They may be very different, it may be when X is done and being used for Y months or years.

So this is a journey and we are all on it. There are few binary decisions in terms of readiness etc. and the hurdles were hard to get past at times, not because they were impossible or hard, just because they require folk to think different to the norm. My email footer used to say it’s not hard, it’s different. That annoyed too many people though :slight_smile:

So “done” requires clarification and I feel we all will see that as a different thing, it could be, does this work, well we can see it does (like an early ford or apache server etc.) but does it work enough? well no, not for release as a use this now network for any users, we are early adopters waiting to adopt early, for the time being we are testers, but like the engineers us testers are just as important and contribute to the project velocity.

Anyway this is my personal thinking process here. Hope it helps a little.

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For simplicity, I propose we take “done” to mean all the things that were initially proposed at the ico which would include a stable network with vaults and functioning Safecoin without any further bells and whistles (apps).
I appreciate that designs/implementations etc have since changed, but what was initially “a short hop away” has now become an unknown quantity.
Using my definition of “done” and given that we only have a finite amount of funding that will only last a finite amount of time, then “done” has to be reached before both funding and time runs out.
As this would clearly be a disaster, can I ask what plans are in place to avoid this scenario?
My guess is that further “franchise” type deals and a second investment round in Maidsafe would be potential options. In order for these things to be enticing, (certainly the 2nd one) then the Network would have to be “done enough” - so it appears you have a known timeframe for the Network to be “done enough”.
My questions would be:
What is this timeframe?
What would your definition of “done enough” be before approaching investors again?
Do you have other/ongoing ideas plans or deals in the pipeline in this regard?
Dad…are we nearly there yet?.. :smile:

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Is that really true?

Maidsafe still have 15M Maid. They’re now worth over $3M and I would not be at all shocked to them worth a lot more than $15M soon after the arrival of testsafecoin and MD. If they can carry on delivering really solid and impressive development then the wider community will continue to get more and more interested as we get closer to proving it all in the wild, even while some of the original ico holders are understandably getting frustrated with waiting.

I think funding was quite a big issues last year, but it seems to be in a really good place right now with a very positive future. Even with all the extra hiring and the increased monthly burn it still looks like they are living well within their means if they can get us to testsafecoin in 2017/2018 - which does still sound very likely.

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I concur with you, the minimum features should be the ones promoted at the ICO.
The feature you are listing would be enough for the mvp release, imo.
Also the definite “doneness” should be measured by how stable it is after stress testing it through the most weird edge cases possible, and the community definitely can take that role.

But I still disagree with the “short hop away” becoming disappointing.
Check this out:

They were that close (that’s from 2014), it certainly looks way more functional than what we have right now.
So at that time the short-hop was probably very true, until David realized that the network can have:

  1. A new simplified design which would allow it to make it more efficient and simpler to maintain*
  2. Switching to Rust to make sure it is memory safe.

This is when things became way out of control regarding to the time, and as other users have confirmed here, after Rust any prediction about delivering became understandably impossible.
With Rust it covered one of my worries: what if you can remotely exploit a safenetwork node?
Now that attack surface is quite reduced.

From now on development should be easier and faster. Think what would be the point if the code could only be understood by one or two people in the whole company? How would you scale that?
With these changes now the barrier to participate is lowered for everyone while at the same time the security is heightened.
It was definitely not time wasted, but time invested.

*(there was a long post by David Irvine from that time that I am not able to find it now, but it was very interesting how he described his process of enlightenment in how a simple change of perspective about the network he suddenly made sense about the different roles of the nodes, if anyone can find it please post it here because I want to reread it.)

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Could it be this thread?

nah, it was a blog post. I tried to search in blog.maidsafe.net and metaquestions.me but I couldn’t find it.
Is there a third blog somewhere? :confused: ?

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Oh yeah, I found it:

Really worth reading it. This is the Eureka moment of @dirvine

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This is what I thought too.

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Potentially the same features, but a more pragmatic definition of launch (done) would be: when we are confident that anything stored or created on the network is SAFE. So no more network resets envisaged.

This means things could shift but has a more general meaning. It could be as defined at the ICO, or if deemed necessary as a result of testing, in order to ensure stability it might add in data republishing for example.

The important point is done/launch, would mean SAFE to use for real (with fingers crossed of course!). I think it would be untenable to stick to the ICO definition if the network was still not stable enough for real data and applications. :slight_smile:

It’s my understanding that this is what MaidSafe mean by launch. They are as eager for that as anyone, so I don’t think we get where we want any quicker by changing that.

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I can’t wait for a reimplementation of LifeStuff! Obviously we never got to play with it in the first place but to me that’s an app I’d use regularly. There was also a WorkStuff app they were planning back then too which would have been a bit different but a collaborative app which are even more popular today so it’s all still very relevant and even more so when on the Safe Network.

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