Introduction to MaidSafe: what it is, how it works, and how it compares to Bitcoin

[phrphz]

Just found this: Pay to delete? - #20 by janitor

So it seems deletion of data is not possible, at least not yet?

I’d say the space it takes is more or less neglectable, but as it has to be duplicated whenever a node containing such stuff has network issues, what comes to my mind is a network that is constantly busy duplicating content it already has, which gets worse the more content is available in the network. Or am I over-estimating that effect?

[Melvin]

@eblanshey You’re calling Maidsafe ‘the project’ and you’re also saying ‘The Maidsafe Network’. In my opinion, the network is called the SAFE network and I think that it’s important to start making a very clear distinction between Maidsafe (The company that is building the network) and the SAFE network (what is actually the network).

[dallyshalla]

@phrphz

You’ll definitely be able to delete your own data; That thread had to do with is if it is possible to switch owners for a file.

[dallyshalla]

Definitely should give nice credit whenever one can and where it is due, indeed ‘safe network’ would represent a collective of people, these are the adopters of the technology, yet the network is maidsafe, luckily, and has everyone in mind…

[Melvin]

But Maidsafe is the company that is building the SAFE network.

From:

Trademarks

Just to keep everyone update with regard to trademarks (worth noting that we pursue TMs not to restrict others from using our names and digital assets, but to ensure that we are not restricted in their use). Our strategy for the TM ‘maidsafe’, for example, has been to file to protect the word (as it offers broader protection than a logo) within the UK and once registration has been confirmed, use the Madrid System to spread that registration internationally. This has worked well for ‘maidsafe’ a…

Nick Lambert says:

I have started to go through the same process for ‘safecoin’ and ‘Safe Network’ with limited success. I was unable to overcome objections for ‘safe network’ and this is ultimately refused, although I have passed through the first stage with ‘safecoin’. However, there is a EU community mark for safecoin that is likely to hamper international progress. I may try and get around this by filing for protection on the safecoin logo itself as a backup.

[phrphz]

@dallyshalla Sorry, was pointing to the wrong comment. This is the right one: Pay to delete? - #18 by happybeing where @happybeing says that there is no way [at all] to forget any content [yet?].

[chrisfostertv]

@Melvin

But Maidsafe is the company that is building the SAFE network.

What is MaidSafe?
MaidSafe Advantages
How does MaidSafe work?

‘SAFE Network’ is evidenced by some of the titles on the 33 FAQ Videos:

But on Maidsafe site it states:

‘MaidSafe is a fully decentralized platform’ and the video is ‘Maidsafe technology’ and most press articles are referring to Maidsafe also

Maidsafe, ProjectSAFE, SAFE Network ?

…it’s all too confusing for Benny Barbecue…he’s sticking with Internet 1 ‘it just works’

[dallyshalla]

Yepp, I think @happybeing was referring to that there is no way for the network to automatically ‘forget’ data, let’s say if someone doesn’t access a piece of data for a year, should it be deleted off of the network.

Currently, this is not the case. Though an individual person can delete their own data.

[happybeing]

@dallyshalla

Though an individual person can delete their own data.

I don’t think even that is the case! Last I heard, data is never deleted.

[dallyshalla]

maidsafe-archive/MaidSafe-Network-Filesystem/blob/next/docs/rest_api.md

for example, you can find DeleteContainer(std::string)

Then there is this, by @ned14

Will the data be stored forever?

If its owner deletes the data, and no other copies exist, and no one uploads identical data using the same owner keys, it’ll eventually get garbage collected subject to free space pressure. The handy part of this is if you delete everything from SAFE, and then reupload it again, the network will spot that the chunks are already uploaded and you don’t actually need to upload anything. If you’re more worried about the privacy/security thing that deleting data doesn’t really delete data, that’s …

[eblanshey]

Nice catch. There’s also this on the same page:

Delete(std::string key, RetrieveBlobVersion)

Removes the key from the Container.

[vtnerd]

This is really old, but I just noticed it. Currently there is no way to remove data from the network, and there isn’t expected to the be in the near future. This command simply creates a new Container (directory) version that has an empty slot for the specified key. But the prior versions of the container (directory) can still be retrieved from the network if desired. Eventually the history “ages” off (we cannot store an infinite history), making it partially invisible, but it can still be retrieved from the network if the address + decryption keys are known. I suspect this will be useful for programmers - you’ll want to hold onto the DataMap of the previous file until the new file has been confirmed as stored. This would allow for an infinite amount of container versions updated since you originally started, but you still have access to the data. So removing files when the directory ages off has problems in knowing whether every participant no longer wishes to use it - which could force the programmer to store the entire contents in memory while updating (depending on their situation).

The other problem with deletion (permanently removing data from the network) is ensuring that no one is using that chunk of data, and verifying this in a way that doesn’t reveal user information. This can be complicated.

Also the container (directory) serialisation itself will not be deleted either when it ages off. Its unlikely that two people have chunks that merged in this situation, but technically it is possible, so I think it must be treated exactly like blobs (files).

[maxaura]

Hello,

Great read @eblanshey .

The introduction on alternate options for working collective systems and proposed beneficial comparison to current global known/utilized internet and also first trend wave of digital currencies. The monitoring from outside sources has always been at the frontier of compartmentalizing societies, though there has always been a great divide amongst decisions on authorities and control over how, where, when, and in what direction one is capable to utilize, most apparently financially.

Happy to read this, and glad to be here.

Thank You

[draw]

If it is indeed true that deletion isn’t possible, could that be a problem?
I assume that in the SAFE network, a user has a certain storage size he can use, depending on what he earned / payed.
And if you remove a file, you get that space back to store something else, or not?
If there are users that very frequently replace their (visible) storage, will there be enough storage?
Or is there an additional cost to replacing often?
Can it be a way of attacking the SAFE network?
I know that part of the solution is deduplication, but evil minds can try to attack with constantly uploading new, unique data.

[reivanen]

Wow, this is the first time i read about not being able to delete own data on the network. This is something that should be implemented as fast as possible because it both frees up resources and makes people feel they have control.

No matter how many times you say that a file is private because it is encrypted won’t convince some people.

I for one know i won’t use this for anything truly private if deletion is not possible, because who knows what happens in a decade or two on the front of cryptanalysis etc.

[eblanshey]

@draw

And if you remove a file, you get that space back to store something else, or not?

I don’t believe you get anything back. This has been discussed a lot on the forums already. I think it’s really a big grey area that no one’s 100% sure about in terms of sustainability (until we actually try it out).

The idea is that everything is versioned and kept in history. Over time, if the network runs out of storage space, then old data that has been “deleted” using the API call will get replaced. At least that is the way I currently understand it. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. In the future they might also implement auto-garbage collection.

[happybeing]

This is a concern that people raise from time to time.It is true ATM and you’ll find at least a couple of threads where it has been discussed and responded to by David.

It is doubtful that it is a problem resource wise.

The concern you raise about encryption being defeated in future is valid, and I don’t think has been raised or answered. So good point.

Maybe @dirvine can comment on that, and if anyone has links to earlier discussions on deletion, please post them.

[fergish]

@happybeing

The concern you raise about encryption being defeated in future is valid, and I don’t think has been raised or answered. So good point.

There is always a concern about that, but the I believe David designed the system so that recovery of meaningful data through broken encryption would still be next to impossible due to the self-encryption and dispersal of the chunks throughout untraceable nodes across the globe. You have to have the keys to the data map for that file for broken encryption to be meaningful, and if you have the keys to the data map, who needs the encryption braker.

[vtnerd]

@fergish

There is always a concern about that, but the I believe David designed the system so that recovery of meaningful data through broken encryption would still be next to impossible due to the self-encryption and dispersal of the chunks throughout untraceable nodes across the globe. You have to have the keys to the data map for that file for broken encryption to be meaningful, and if you have the keys to the data map, who needs the encryption braker.

This is largely true, but some work can be done on directories, which store the chunk information. Ultimately data is encrypted, as a single element, and encrypted with a block cipher (AES). The size of this chunk itself could give away its purpose, and lend itself to a brute forcing attack. Once the serialisation format is finalized, someone should look at padding these chunks to a random amount or the largest chunk size (1MB). Not sure on the best approach (there may be a third better way yet). Something I’ve been meaning to email the team internally, in case they haven’t discussed this before.

EDIT:
I botched this slightly, you could still brute force a chunk in a file, but you would only get part of the file. Depending on the situation this would be useless or helpful.

Another interesting thought I had was to store a random 256-bit value in a file, then use ChaCha over the remainder of the file before giving it to the self-encryptor. Not something I would recommend to do automatically.

Second Edit:
In my last post I forgot about the XORing at the end. Thats probably what you were referring to initially. That would make it more difficult if AES was nailed, but could unintentionally leak information about adjacent chunks if the implementation isn’t carefully done.

[fergish]

Thanks. I’m not surprised that this is more complex than I thought. But, shucks!, I thought this was all covered!