Instead of default free space, we should be encouraging charity, etc

Well done, MaidSafe team; and now Cory Doctorow for addressing the fundamental dilemma of our digital environment;

:white_check_mark:

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The idea of SAFEphone seems doubly compelling if the foundation of crypto is crumbling. Security more than before means control of the hardware, software and network. SAFEphone could provide the complete echo system. Its also self promoting and might also be itself a unit of SAFEcoin. Yes SAFEphone = SAFEcoin phone unit currency. At some point as thin as a dollar bill and a literal replacement.

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I think the act of individuals paying out of their safecoin holdings is going to be necessary to prevent abuse and individuals creating many accounts by inviting themselves. It might be nice to eventually pay back the person sharing their safecoins with lifestuff earnings but since we’re avoiding proof of human we need to avoid making it profitable to invite fake accounts to earn safecoin. Maybe restricting the amount of safecoin that gets reimbursed per invite from the apps earnings?

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Yeah, didn’t even think of that. I could just run my money in a circle and keep creating accounts. Account A makes Account B. B gets the money who sends it to C. C sends it to D. D back to A. Now I have 4 accounts and have lost nothing.

I’d say require a network fee for creating accounts, but I’m not sure where that money would go, and for what effective use… is the network capable of taking tax? I know this was brought up abstractly, but can it actually do that?

Or, could we just be implementing a proof-of-burn kinda thing? 10 safecoins for the account, 5 are burned.

EDIT: I just realized, none of this matters. What am I talking about? Is there any reason to bother stopping people from making accounts? No one is making money on it, and no one is gaining anything. And I don’t believe this can be used for an attack. Or can there be an attack…? If they can be used to attack, then yeah, stop it.

Yes it can recycle these coins, this is potentially the simplest way.

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From what I understood, the plan we are discussing separates the 2 functions: GET and PUT

Create Account (Enables unlimited GET functionality)

  • Receive Safecoin from donations, and farming
  • Receive Msg, Email, Etc.
  • Download from SAFE Network
  • Cannot Spam the Network

Activate Account (Enables limited PUT functionality)

  • Send Safecoin
  • Send Msg, Email, Etc.
  • Upload to the SAFE Network
  • Can spam the Network but it costs them Safecoin

It’s similar to being a “guest” on a public forum. You can read/download all the posts. But if you want to post or upload content, you have to register and get X amount of post allowance.

In my mind, activating your account is the same as buying a block of storage for PUT requests.

I think most APPS will have PUT requests in their functionality. If the APPS become popular, there is a strong incentive for people to buy more PUT storage beyond activation.

I hope most people become farmers. The more resources they contribute, the more they can use the Network without paying fiat money. Some farmers will sell Safecoin on the exchanges, or spend Safecoin on products/services in the SAFE Network.


So here’s the BIG question. If people can upload their content for free, would they switch over to the SAFE Network where they have to pay to upload? Charity may play a big role in the outcome of this online migration.

I foresee 2 situations.

  1. A new user creates an account, starts farming. But he/she has to wait 24hrs or more… before they earn enough Safecoin to buy their first block of storage. They may get frustrated and lose interest if there aren’t enough APPS to make it worth the effort.

  2. A new user gets a friend invite with “gift code.” He/she creates an account, redeems the gift code and BAM! :fireworks: They are accessing the Network full speed.

Early adopters will likely be #1 with mass migration being #2. APPS are a key ingredient.

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Excellent summation, David.

Thanks.

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I was specifically referencing lifestuff (or any safe app) potentially contributing its safecoin earnings towards a new user invite pool. If users could be rewarded aka paid back for sending out invites, it would create incentive to invite yourself and become rewarded.

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Is this correct? Unlimited GET functionality just for creating an account?

Unless MaidSafe says otherwise, that is my understanding.

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It is easy to implement proof of human. I can make a game that people can play; and if my game app is popular, a person can get the reward the app would have generated. Mostly only humans can play most of the games with a good amount of complexity.

So getting on SAFE Network and then entering a game room would create an instance where people can earn some safecoin by playing the game, since as they play that game the app will earn some coins and the coder could design a way to pass on those coins to the player of the game.

Games a fun, and it will be fun to get safecoins and get initiated during a game :arrow_up_down:

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I thought GETs were supposed to reward farmers. Not penalize them.

Seems like if someone had popular chunks on their drive (movies or songs?), they would shut down their vault and start over. No incentive to keep it on if it’s hogging bandwidth.

Am I missing something? This seems backwards to me.

Farmers store the data. When GETs occur on the stored data, the farmer has the opportunity to earn safecoin. So popular GETs might give that vault more opportunity to earn. But if it is very popular, the demand will be fulfilled a lot by opportunististically cached chunks out and about the network, rather than the request reaching the original storage vault.

Keep in mind also, that there are four copies of that chunk, three in other vaults. Also, one or even a few 1 mb chunks of a 1.5 gig movie, won’t put a strain on any one machine, as the movies chunks are spread out over the network where the burden will be bourne by lots and lots of vaults.

Does that help?

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Adding to what @fergish said…

Safecoin Distribution

  • GET rewards (Safecoin) are paid by the SAFE Network, not the end-user. But the end-user does “initiate” the GET request.
  • APP rewards (Safecoin) are paid by the SAFE Network, not the end-user. But the end-user does “initiate” the APP usage.

If the SAFE Network is paying for it, where does all the Safecoin come from?
We plan to distribute 4.3 Billion Safecoins within 20 years.

Once all the Safecoins have been distributed, we “could” replace the distribution model above with a different one. Perhaps one that charges end-users for their GET usage instead of PUT storage. I’ve posted alternative replacement models on this forum. We have a good amount of time to figure out a viable replacement, if necessary.

Another part is the recycling mechanism for PUT storage. When end-users buy a block of storage for PUT requests, those Safecoin(s) are recycled back into the pool of farmable coins. This slows down the distribution rate. Theoretically, it could stretch distribution time well over 20 years.

Nothing is set in stone and there are no official figures yet. This is just the best or our knowledge, based on many discussions on this forum.

Your description makes complete sense. I thought that was the plan since March…lol.

I am however confused about what David posted.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what “unlimited GET functionality” means. Are there limitations in place that I’m missing? At first glance it looks as if you can create an account for next to nothing and get unlimited free downloads.

I’m referring to an end-user doing a GET request which is unlimited. So yes, you can download as much as you want.

The farmer on the other end does a GET reply which allows them to earn Safecoin for providing bandwith and hosting data that was requested.

Sorry if I made it confusing.

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It wasn’t you! It was me :smiley:

I just couldn’t get my head around the idea of giving away a limited resource, and making it ‘unlimited’. Truth be told, I’m prob still gonna have to stew on it for a few days.

No worries. It took us several months to iron this out. And we still need to work on terminology for better clarity.

The main reason for making GET requests unlimited is to facilitate Safecoin distribution.

Any worries that a big company will download a ton of files over and over and dilute the safecoin mktcap? I’m guessing perhaps you could control the flow of safecoins, but that still won’t address high bandwidth use if the network gets used a lot.

I’m sure you guys thought about this a lot. Curious about any potential attack vectors/abuse…

Yes, attack vectors have been a major part of evolving to what we seem to be going with, as described well by @dyamanaka. Storing data on the network is what costs safecoin, whether earned by already having contributed to the network, or by purchasing or having them donated to you. So, yes, someone could put in a lot of bandwidth, cpu and storage to earn safecoin, or buy it or have it donated by someone who contributed, in order to purchase the ability to store a flood of junk on the network that stays forever, but it’ll cost them (prohibitively, hopefully).

For discussions of various considered attack vectors just search the threads for same and you should find lots of reading.

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